Is baking soda a buffer and pH adjuster?

[DaTrucka]

Paersonally i would never use bakingsoda for buffer, i think there is more in it than pure SodiumBiCarbonate.

For buffer i am using a mix of 17% SodiumCarbonate (Na2CO3), and 83% SodiumBiCarbonate (NaHCO3). That will stabilize the pH to 8.3. Only 99% pure chemicals used.

Mix 71 grams SodiumBiCarbonate and 14 grams of SodiumCarbonate, and add RO/DI water to the total of 500 grams.
1ml of this solution will raise the Kh with 0.1 dKh/100 liters.

[olsaltybastard]

DaTrucka,


It's always interesting to hear how you folks on the other side of the pond maintain your tanks. It is very obvious that folks in Europe are always interested in taking things to the next level rather than lowering your standards and cause possible harm to your animals in the interest of saving a buck or two.

What is also interesting is that the baking soda in my fridge weighs 1lb and costs $.79 while AR grade Sodium Bicarbonate sold by Fisher Scientific costs about $25 per pound.

[DaTrucka]

Originally Posted by olsaltybastard

DaTrucka,


It's always interesting to hear how you folks on the other side of the pond maintain your tanks. It is very obvious that folks in Europe are always interested in taking things to the next level rather than lowering your standards and cause possible harm to your animals in the interest of saving a buck or two.

I guess it's the same over there, at some points you guys are way ahead from us. No example at the moment, but im sure i'll think of something in the future. But then again what would be the point of lowering the standard?
Reaching for the next level is the way to go, in small steps ofcourse.

What is also interesting is that the baking soda in my fridge weighs 1lb and costs $.79 while AR grade Sodium Bicarbonate sold by Fisher Scientific costs about $25 per pound.

Whoa... that is some expensive stuff. At my lfs that stuff is about $15 for 2 pounds. If i order from Germany it costs me about $6 for 2 pounds.

But then again all livestock and hardware is really expensive over here. For example i recently placed an order at petstore.com with 8 reflectors for my PC bulbs, including the shippingcost and customs it is still cheaper than at my lfs.

[ChuckG]

Don't know what grade it is but from ChemistryStore.com it's like $11 for Sodium Bicarb and $9.70 for the Sodium Carb. These are both 10 lb pales.

[MDPinUSA]

I find it amazing that "someone" can claim to make a phone call to a major manufacturer or supplier of chemicals and somehow get through to ... "someone". Then post their "findings" on the internet. What could the alleged caller say to get such attention?

I.e.. Hello, this is xxxx from the internet. -- Lemmie talk with your chemist. Tell em' to get out of that meeting. Have em' leave their research station. Tell em' to put that cup of coffee down. Get en' off the pot. I want to talk to em' now!

Usually when someone calls a chemical company they get someone in sales. Traditionally sales agents are not familiar with the total chemistry and/or manufacturing procedure of what they sell. They read from a specification sheet. E.g. If a salt was 99.9% pure, amounts of Ni, Ag, Cd, Cs, Pb, etc. would not be on the spec. sheet. However they are present.

It would be beneficial for the education of individuals expressing interest in this topic if that "someone" would post on this RAG™ thread vs. on another board. This would eliminate continuing confusion and misinformation regarding the use of baking soda as a buffer and pH adjuster (the topic of this thread).

E.g. Someone says they made a telephone call. Are we to believe what transpired during an alleged phone call via a post on the internet?. If such a call was made, did the caller provided his "online credentials"? If so, how fast was the caller brushed off? Unless of course, the callers brother in-law was the chemist.

It would be better if there were no "someone's". A real name, perhaps a face, at least some indication of the "someone's" aquarium keeping skills, prior to posting on the internet. Not an unidentified, untraceable, someone that posts something, who may not have an aquarium.

If in a court of law, a witness indicated they read on the internet, that someone called a chemical company, and that someone posted what they were told ... or posted what they were able to comprehend ... or posted what they wanted to hear ... or simply posted with a hidden agenda or to maintain their non aquarist keeping, online aqua guru™ status, ... That testimony would be considered less than hear say. This is a monumental problem on the internet.

I consider what was posted on another board and read by many (regarding this RAG™ thread) to be completely unreliable.

In post #1, section #1 of this thread I posted:

"The anti caking or free flowing agent of choice is usually aluminum silicate. Al Si, ..... "

The key word... "usually".

Other types of anti caking or free flowing agents can be used with salts. To my knowledge few if any of these anti caking or free flowing agents are listed as ingredients in the majority of salts. -- Only when specific requirements for end use is determined and order size is guaranteed, then being in direct communication with a qualified on staff chemist, are these additives disclosed.

"Na HCO3 is produced by more than one manufacturer in more than one grade."

I did not indicate Arm & Hammer® brand. Since "someone" allegedly called Arm & Hammer®, that individual jumped to a conclusion by not reading or understanding post #1 in this thread. Or has limited knowledge of various manufacturers and/or suppliers of certain chemicals.

Chuck, I kudize you on doing some testing for Si in A&H. I am not understanding how 2 small scoops from an Elos test kit measured as .30 ml?

I.e. was the ratio of baking soda comparable to the amount required to raise alkalinity from KH 6.0-7.0 to KH 11 in sea water at SG 1.025-1.026?

I am somewhat perplexed by posts made on another board regarding a thread that was started on ReefAquariumGuide®. I offered a goodly amount of information regarding baking soda, its pH properties, its proposed role in marine aquarium keeping, calcium hydroxide, borate, etc. Thus far the only bone that was picked was from "someone" ostensibly calling a baking soda company. Was there a problem for this "someone" calling their brother in-law chemist at the 20 Mule Team® company?

At this juncture, I see two options. Option #1 will take a few weeks and quite possibly result in unforeseen, undesirable and challenging problems to rectify. Option #2 is simple.

1) Those interested in this topic can use Arm & Hammer® baking soda in their marine aquariums. After some additions, advise if unwanted algae is observed.

2) Read post #5 in this thread.

In the words of Chairman Mao: It's always darkest before it is black.

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[ChuckG]

Originally Posted by MDPinUSA

Chuck, I kudize you on doing some testing for Si in A&H. I am not understanding how 2 small scoops from an Elos test kit measured as .30 ml?

I.e. was the ratio of baking soda comparable to the amount required to raise alkalinity from KH 6.0-7.0 to KH 11 in sea water at SG 1.025-1.026?

I am somewhat perplexed by posts made on another board regarding a thread that was started on ReefAquariumGuide®. I offered a goodly amount of information regarding baking soda, its pH properties, its proposed role in marine aquarium keeping, calcium hydroxide, borate, etc. Thus far the only bone that was picked was from "someone" ostensibly calling a baking soda company. Was there a problem for this "someone" calling their brother in-law chemist at the 20 Mule Team® company?

The scoop from an Elos kit says .4 ml on the big end and .15 ml on the smaller end. I would assume that .15 plus .15 equals .30 or has math changed since I went to school?

I have no clue if the .30 ml of baking soda added to 10 ml of water would be enough to raise alk 4-5 dkh (or even 1 dkh for that matter). Haven't done the research for the math on that one. I simply guessed that if there was silica in the baking soda that two small scoops would be enough to show up on a test kit and allow me to even perform the test. Once you start adding stuff to the mix it becomes a chemical fizzy. Took me 3 attempts to get the test done correctly without blowing the top off and losing fluid and forcing me to start over.

Only two or three people from the other forum have even read this thread. It's not like there is a link in that forum to this thread.

I do understand that you had stated that silica is "generally" the anit-caking agent of choice.

I guess I can also assume that you don't know what anti-caking is used in A&H (if there is one) or you certainly would have stated it by now.

[Paramecium]

Shall I break out the stoichiometry and talk about breaking the baking soda into sodium and CO3 then add in the calcium chloride which breaks into Ca+ and Cl- Ions to bond with the sodium Na+ and Co3- ions?

AT what point in the chemical soup using boyles law do we reach equilibrium and no longer can drive the pH or the carbonate equation. How about if this equilibrium is reached and we still have an excess of ions. There are a lot of other metals and metalloid ions in saltwater that can then pick up these ions on both sides and create all kinds of other reactions.

But without going through a major chemistry lesson, lets just say that the carbonate ion will combine with the calcium ion and form calcium carbonate which is insoluble in a pH of greater then 6.3 or the fact that the other ions will form basic salt all of which are not reactive to raise or lower pH significantly.

This is why if you really read up on the two part DIY solution you will find that if you are a heavy user of the two part that you have to watch your salinity over a 6 month period to make sure you adjust it as it all turns into calcium carbonate and salt.

[ChuckG]

I don't believe I ever took chemistry in school. Is anyone else as lost as I am right now?

[ReefSilly]

Way over my head!!!!
I can't remember anything like that in my class; but in my defense I was drawing the teacher a beard and bad hair and making him a cartoon for the next class "Art".

[olsaltybastard]

Beats the heck out of me. I was too busy chasing girls to care about my education.