Just received an email from my server administrator that half this thread is gone due to the back up database not being in synch with the live database when it was taken off line for a board upgrade. I have most of the email notifications in my email somewhere. I will try to repost all the missing posts from all parties when I have time. Happy New Year!
It seems as though the relationship between MACNA and RAG should be a symbiotic one,that is mutually beneficial to each other!
I am very curious as to just how many people attended MACNA that were turned on to it by ads on RAG, and visa versa ,how many people were turned on to RAG that attended MACNA.
Maybe a poll is in order to show just how the readership, (membership) feels about this issue since it has been made public.
Thats right Dave - I posted this last week during the great debate and I never got a response from either side
maybe no one really knows or no one wants to admit who actually benefits more.
Your indication of not wanting to be profitable with the next MACNA is either commendable or without question a colossal financial blunder.
It is well understood that hobby clubs compete for hosting MACNA. The reason is for revenue. To date no hobby club has hosted a MACNA event as a charity or non profit event.
It find it unbelievable that $200,000+ will go across a table where you sit and there will be no profit. This after someone in your organization is considering 501 (c) tax exemption. It is obvious that someone at your end is already counting money and wondering how to keep as much as possible.
In the real world you would be hard pressed to secure the services of a web site oriented to your event theme for the trade described in this thread. This web site would promote via banners and host forum(s) and thread(s) that would be of direct benefit to your effort. You or someone in charge should authorize what RAG is requesting.
You personally, your local hobby club, MACNA and MASNA would look good if someone in a position of authority realized the good will as well as good business to simply end this on a positive note. A simple exchange of professional courtesies between RAG and MACNA would benefit all.
From event planning to web hosting. From what I have read thus far, I would not promote your event. I would not support your event. I would not attend your event. Unless someone at your end gave up less than 1% of your gross take.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuba4life
This has been an interesting on-going read for me. Especially considering I used to be a rep/account manager for a large hotel that did exactly this-host conferences.
Let me shine a bit of light on this industry for you.
Mr. Pro is using a figure of $1600 in costs for the things RAG would like.
What is not said, is that a hotel room block is reserved, if Mr. Pro would sell out 400 room nights, he would most likely get a free Suite and a free other room. Plus he would get extensive discounts on additional rooms. I believe that last years MACNA ran at about 800 attendees, so this means he would get even more free rooms and an even more extensive room discount. Theoretically, he could get 2/3rd of the rooms for free for his speakers and about $50 a night for any additional rooms.
Additionally all these costs are based on selling blocks of room nights. 400 is usually the magic number as if they sell out 400 room nights then they get the exhibit hall for free with drapes and poles.
The one variable here is dryage. This is having labor available to move products from the shipping docks to the exhibition floor using either manual labor or forklifts and such. Dryage can be provided at a fixed rate by the hotel or by a union. This is the one thing that has not been determined in this thread yet.
Considering the booths at this years MACNA are significantly higher prices about $100 more, I would venture to say that they are rolling the costs of the electricity and dryage into the booth costs.
Now back to that magic number of 400 room nights. If they sell out 400 room nights, it is customary to give them the banquet room for free usage as long as they purchase the meal and catering through the hotel. I believe earlier that Patrick said this was $16,000.
Patrick did also mention printing I believe their printing costs will be a bit higher as they need to print their entrance kiosk, and name badges and such, but I would not say more than double.
What does all this boil down to? For the conference size they are planning: Basically there will be a few empty booths from looking at their floor plan they will have room for a lot and they will not sell them out.
So the actual cost to MACNA to invite RAG would be $75 for electricity, $450 for internet to have RAG admin for the ENTIRE show and $400 for room cost.
The registrations cost MACNA nothing. The $450 for internet should not be put on RAG's onus because it is for the entire show.
So to make it even more simple it would cost them $475 to take care of RAG at the show and about an hour of Steven's time to arrange the room and put RAG on the list.
RAG on the other hand, has Patrick's time at the show taking care of the ENTIRE show's internet and running the webcams which directly benefit MACNA and future MACNA's not to mention the increase costs for bandwidth during that month.
So basically it is wash if the two just shake hands and agree to a trade.
Yes, trade shows do make money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Pro
Yet another assumption in this thread which turns out to be false. MACNA XIX gets no comped rooms. We passed along all discounts to the attendees. That is why both our hotel room rates and registration prices are the lowest they have been in four years. Whatever hotel rooms we need for speakers, we are paying for out of pocket like anyone else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Pro
I really think I am about done here. You all can chose to believe me or not. You can chose to come to MACNA or not. I am merely one member of a committee which formulated a policy. It is only my job to explain that policy and I have far too much integrity to offer one message board something I would not offer any other board. Everyone is going to be treated equally and fairly.
As to profit, I know how much the last two year's shows netted. And, considering the man hours that went into both, they would have been far better off getting a minimum wage, part-time job at a local fish store and donating said income.
I hope you all reconsider attending. This will be my 8th MACNA and I have thoroughly enjoyed everyone thus far. And I am sure if you come and give this year a fair shake, you will enjoy this one too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jlouv
Steven, thank you for the time you spent explaining the committee's position here and your eloquence in doing so. As I stated in my last {first} post, I'm glad you see that you agree this thread has run it's course.
I'd like to say again, as the launch date gets closer, and there are booths that remain unfilled, we will still be here patiently waiting for the committee to accept our offer to attend your conference. And if that offer never comes, well then maybe next year the hosts will correct PIT's mistake.
On a personal note however, I feel that the committee is making a grevious error. It is supposed to be a CONFERENCE. PIT is turning it into a trade show. By not "throwing a bone" to the core of the ultimate end users, you've effectively eliminated the everyday hobbiest from the equation. I am only assuming, but I believe there is only one marine forum that is even slightly capable of paying the bill you've demanded. If RAG doesn't go, I'll be looking forward to seeing what other forums did go. Especially being that "Everyone is going to be treated equally and fairly."
The more I type, the angrier I get. This situation is feeling similar to a new neighborhood here where I live. The houses are the same as any other place nearby. They're built cheaply and not in a very nice place in regards to the daily commute. But what makes them different is that they are about $100k more expensive than houses in a different neighborhood. But even there, in that neighborhood, "Everyone is going to be treated equally and fairly." It's easy for them to say because they've just priced the neighborhood in a way so that they only have to treat the 1% of people equally that are capable of paying the $$$ to live there.
Now replace the word "neighborhood" with "forum" and "live" with "attend."
It'll be interesting to see which, if any at all, forums are able to attend.
Quote:
Originally Posted by scuba4life
Steven,
What an insult to the intelligence of the members here. Even if you do not get comped rooms, there is still 200k out there and you already admitted to expected speaker costs.
I cannot believe you continue to insult the members here.
I think Jlouv is right.
My parting thoughts, last year in Houston we all wondered what would happen to MACNA when the "Aqua Guru's" got a hold of it.
You never did address the 501(c) status. Sure MACNA is not applying for it but PMASI is, they are the hosts of MACNA, so if your not planning to make a profit, then why do you need that?
Everyone needs to check out the BOD minutes that are publically listed on the masna website. I have taken a couple hours now to read them and you would be even more inclined to believe what MDP said.
Thus, with that, I say to my fellow RAG members: * Let your conscience be your guide and cancel your MACNA registration. Additionally we are all members of other boards, I will be spreading the word. I hope you do as well!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Pro
---Quote (Originally by Steven Pro)---
PMASI is applying for 501(c)-7 status.
---End Quote---
Which means we will be paying taxes.
I posted a link to the IRS website for a 501(c)(7)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Pro
If you read that PDF, you will see there is a provision for income from non-members. As it was explained to me by our accoutant, since most attendees and exhibitors will not be members of PMASI, we will have to pay taxes. Plus, there is no avoiding state sales tax or the local municipality's taxes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldsaltybastard
---Quote (Originally by Steven Pro)---
Plus, there is no avoiding state sales tax or the local municipality's taxes.
---End Quote---
As a card carrying Libertarian, I would have to say that this sentence is true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Pro
Money seems to be a big focus of some of the participants here, so let's run the numbers.
100 vendors at an average of $800 per booth (there are various discounts at play here) - $80,000 750 attendees at an average of $100 each - 75,000 Raffle - $20,000
That leaves $33,500, but I have not included printing, advertising, audio/visual, or federal taxes yet as I don't have solid estimates on those. I imagine the club will still make some money, but not a lot. And as I said before, based on the number of manhours that goes into a show such as this, we would be farther ahead donating earnings from a minimum wage, part-time job at the local fish store. This is a labor of love. I am doing this to put on a good show for the hobby.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuba4life
Good try Steven!
Everyone can read through the MASNA minutes and find out how much costs really are . . . .
If you are trying to say the other costs are correct, and Aquarium Fish is not hosting or paying for the Reception or that the cost for the banquet and coffee service is that high . . . . .
Either that, or the hotel really saw you coming and handed you a jar of petroleum jelly!
Like I said, I used to do this for a living!
I posted something about discussing this with the RAG advisory board.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Pro
Patrick, why do you so badly want to attend a show that you have repeatedly have shown an incredible amount of disdain for?
There is no need to wait for the advisory board. We are done.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Pro
It appears someone has deleted Patrick's comments that came directly after Michael's and right before my previous posting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuba4life
No one said anything about previous macnas. they are wholly discussing the mess your group is making of this year's macna.
I should also point out that next year a whole new group will do MACNA thus all these problems should be alleviated and they can learn from your mistakes and how you treat your #1 advertising medium for an internet show.
I doubt Patrick will even respond to any threads. It appears he did a cpu upgrade on the RAG server yesterday and I would venture that since it is a holiday weekend and Rag is a business that he is not going to be "at work" until after the holiday.
Today when I opened my email, I received this from Steven Pro:
I am done being called a liar, crook, and a tax cheat. I believe I have acted professionally and with courtesy from the very beginning. That positive attitude has been met with contempt, false accusations, incorrect assumptions, and character attacks. RAG will not be attending MACNA unless I receive a public apology from Patrick first.
Today when I opened my email, I received this from Steven Pro:
I am done being called a liar, crook, and a tax cheat. I believe I have acted professionally and with courtesy from the very beginning. That positive attitude has been met with contempt, false accusations, incorrect assumptions, and character attacks. RAG will not be attending MACNA unless I receive a public apology from Patrick first.
I was rather afraid something like this would occur. Once each side has stated their position and the other side responded, that should have been the end of the discussion. By letting it run back and fourth, both sides, even if they didn't say it in public, got madder and madder at each other. Now we reach a point where neither side cares to back down and an ultimatum has been issued.
I would suggest to both sides, RAG and MACNA that they both forget about this thread, and make what ever they plan for MACNA as strictly a business decision. (see my previous post in this thread)
Patrick has told the RAG staff that only he will edit this thread. I suggest to him that no matter what occurs that this thread be closed. It is creating too much bad blood.
It seems as though the relationship between MACNA and RAG should be a symbiotic one,that is mutually beneficial to each other!
I am very curious as to just how many people attended MACNA that were turned on to it by ads on RAG, and visa versa ,how many people were turned on to RAG that attended MACNA.
Maybe a poll is in order to show just how the readership, (membership) feels about this issue since it has been made public.
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidh202
Thats right Dave - I posted this last week during the great debate and I never got a response from either side
maybe no one really knows or no one wants to admit who actually benefits more.
As I recall, following the last MACNA, we had about a dozen people sign up here. This past week, I have seen more people sign up with a "Hi, I'm new here" thread than I can remember in the past.
No one called anyone a liar, crook, or cheat (although the number of members argument came close). The issue would have been grist for a rumor mill and I am satisfied that I have been able to come to my own conclusion by seeing the discussion. Suffice it to say, MACNA does not appear to ever run in the red with or with out RAG. RAG does not appear to benefit in a significant way from attending. I think the mutual agreement is for MACNA to be without RAG this year. There is more to my opinion than just this post but I do believe this is as brief as I can be about it.
__________________
Ask me why you shouldn't go to Friends University!
After attending many trade shows over the years and seeing some vendors sitting at their booths with very little attendance , long faces,and wondering why they even bothered, I would say that between what is be asked of RAG and the time and expense involved in just attending is not worth it.
I received the same email from Steven Pro as Patrick.
I will respond to his email in this thread for a few reasons:
1) Because it has already been posted.
2) I am reluctant to reply to Steven Pro's emails.
Steven, if you recall, about one year ago I sent you an email in confidence asking you to host a forum or be active on RAG.
To my surprise Eric Borneman replied to the email I sent you. The content of his email to prompted me to reply with some realities he needed to be aware of.
Even more to my surprise, the confidential email I sent to Eric was replied to by Anthony Calfo! In short order it became apparent with the level of operators I was dealing with.
3) Thus far, no one has called anyone a liar or tax cheat.
However, some of the information you posted is diametrically opposed to information several here have ferreted out. I would have suggested that you check your financial figures again. -- However you chose to post that RAG has hurt your MACNA (lost post, hopefully to be restored).
How can you be called a tax cheat when you apply for a tax exemption to an event that has not yet taken place?
BTW, you indicated that it was your local hobby club that is or has applied for the tax exemption, not MACNA. Aren't you the treasurer of your hobby club?
From what I have seen on this thread your MACNA is starting out squeezing nickels. While $200,000.00 +/- will be generated.
It is good for your MACNA that all web sites are getting dollar for dollar swap. OK, No other site can provide a live web camera(s) and provide various internet services. That alone is $2500.00 (discounted from $3999.99). See, you either owe RAG money, or you were offered one hell of a deal.
It was obvious that the majority of posts made by RAG members attempted to bridge any gaps between our positions. Many RAG members provided accurate and timely input to your many posts. However, not one your posts yielded from your initial position.
With virtually every post made by a RAG member, you have replied with "inaccurate". -- I know... everyone else is wrong! -- Does anyone else besides me see a pattern here?
This industry (as well as all other business activities) does not and cannot function on a One Way Street. Successful commerce must travel on a Two Way Street. I did not think Pro Street was one-way and uphill.
As the RAG business advisor I submit that RAG wish you all the best with your 2007 effort.
RAG looks forward to supporting MACNA 2008.
__________________
Michael Del Prete
CEO Aqua Craft Products www.AquaCraft.net
Good try Steven!
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