Perhaps another phone call is in order to Houston! MACNA never provided a hard line connection for us. Randy Reed who was a RAG SPONSOR paid the bill and provided the hard line internet connection. It was worked out through MACNA, Reed Mariculture, and Myself. The biggest atrocity is they did not even get a mention in the show booklet or anything for providing the internet for the show. I personally walked around to every booth on Sunday and whom ever was not busy with an attendee, I talked to and let them know Reed Mariculture paid for the internet connection everyone was using. OH, btw, before we can even provide internet, we have to be invited to the show, so that is a mute point.
Now, I do not know who paid for my room, but I sure didn't and it was ready when I got there on Thursday afternoon. I wonder how that is possible since I never gave them a credit card.
Everyone is talking about doing the math so lets do some math. 800 attendees is 800 people.
100 vendor booths 2 show passes per booth(we will not even count the only 1 pass for extra booths for double and triple booths) that is 200 people.
Total of 1000 people. If the banquet is costing $50,000 then your serving each person a $50 meal. I will personally go out on a limb here and say if you contacted the local Timberlodge or Outback, you could get a significantly better meal catered in to the show for less than $50 per person. I believe this number is excesssively exaggerated.
Now keeping with the 1000 people theme, you would have coffee service on Saturday and Sunday Mornings. That would be $10,000 per time. Thus it would equal out to $10 per person for coffee and a danish?
All these places you have signed up . . . don't you usually have a banner up for them on the site? I know Dennis at IMAC had our initial one up within hours. Currently there are 10 banners on the MACNA site, of which two are Anthony Calfo's who is also in charge this MACNA fiasco.
There is one site listed with forums and a whole 408 members. I do not see any of the sites you listed earlier in this thread.
I like how here your saying 501(c)(7) but on the MASNA site it is listed as 501(c)(3) ~Thanks to Scuba for such an informative link.
Thus, I believe there to be two accurate numbers listed on your cost breakdown. That is MASNA fees and Credit card fees.
Additionally the Washington MACNA did file under (501)(c)(3) the same as you reported to file under to the MASNA board.
Steven, all these little things about this MACNA continue to pile up, what else is hidden behind closed doors.
Now, I would like to address your comment of: "Patrick, why do you so badly want to attend a show that you have repeatedly have shown an incredible amount of disdain for?
There is no need to wait for the advisory board. We are done."
Steven, RAG has always had a place with both IMAC and MACNA. It is understood that we go the extra mile to give people who do not attend the show a little bit of a teaser with the web cams and ongoing chat room during the show. If you look at how attendance numbers have grown in the last years, I would like to believe we had a part in that. Never once did I say I badly wanted to attend, it is merely tradition. After seeing how you have treated myself, the RAG membership and some of the inaccuracies you have portrayed, I do not think RAG should support THIS YEARS MACNA!
I do want to point out, that each year MACNA is hosted by a different club. Next Year neither Steven Pro, Anthony Calfo, nor Eric Borneman will have anything to do with MACNA. Perhaps next year RAG will be invited to attend with open arms as it has in the past.
Let me end up with saying, Steven would you pay any of your clients to let you come and take care of their tanks? Most likely not. Then why should RAG pay you to advertise your show, promote your show, and foster good will to your show? You will not do it, but you expect us to?
Steven, I wish you and your family a healthy and happy new year.
My name is Adam Cesnales. I am president of PMASI and on the MACNA 2007 committee.
I hesitated to post here because the discussion has been so caustic, but it pains me that this has all gotten so out of hand. I won't respond to anything that has been said above because it will only serve to fan the flames.
The biggest thing that strikes me about all of this is the amount of discussion regarding how much PMASI stands to make from the conference. I will state without question that the estimates of our profits are grossly exaggerated. The last two MACNA's have provided us with very accurate accounting for their conferences. Neither made even close to 50K and one made well less than half of that. Our projections are similar. When our conference is over, our records will be made public and I will personally provide a link to them in this thread.
In any case... what we will make is irrelevant. What it costs us irrelevant. What it costs RAG to provide the advertising is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is if we can come to an agreement that we both feel is a good value. If we can't, so be it. We won't trash RAG and we would hope that RAG won't trash us and won't stifle the free discussion of MACNA in their forums. After all, when Sports Illustrated negotiates with the Superbowl about advertising costs, do they bicker about each other's profits and costs? Of course not. The only thing that matters is if the deal represents a good value to both parties.
Quite simply, when we look at the costs of providing the RAG staff with what they have requested, it does not represent a good value to us. RAG's offer to provide webcam and wireless networking services is generous, but they aren't services that we need, so we can only consider the value of the advertising. Unfortunately, our offer wasn't a good value for RAG either, but we can't match other conferences offers because what was a good value for other conferences may not be a good value for us.
Our number one goal is to provide a great educational conference at a great value for our attendees. Making wise business decisons regarding advertising contributes to our success in this regard.
I am sorry to see that RAG and MACNA XIX could not come to a mutually beneficial agreement, but there are no hard feelings on our part and hope there are none on the part of RAG's leadership.
To the RAG membership... To further my analogy, if SI and the superbowl don't reach an advertising agreement, SI would still cover the superbowl as a news event and certainly wouldn't expect it's readers to boycott. I hope that you will all see past this unfortuanate discussion and make a decision about MACNA based on the value that it represents to you as an individual. If it is worth it to you to come and see the great speakers, workshops and exhibitors then we look forward to having you. If it is not worth it to you, then we have failed in our effort to maximize the value in the conference for our attendees.
That was a very well written post and I must commend you on your ability to see this as it is, rather than the melodramatic internet scuffle that sits at the surface.
I am always interested in what comes of MACNA as it's always nice to see new things. I'm not the type to attend a trade show even if it was in my own city (MACNA 2007, Erlanger, KY!!) though I never had any intentions of boycotting the show. It is kind of a bummer as RAG has really done a lot with regards to being able to see stuff while in the comfort of my own home (where I can still smoke cigarettes for the time being.)
I'm not telling you or anyone how to run a show, but if you are placing the duty of internet services on the hotel's wireless network, things could get ugly quickly. If some of your vendors cannot make purchases due to internet issues at MACNA, you will most certainly hear it from them after the show. Sure you could find someone to assist in this matter, but remember that Patrick has lent his assistance for several shows already and has a broad range of knowledge in this area.
The stalemate that has occurred in this matter is about as frustrating as the dopes in our government. I see fault and reason on both sides of the situation. I don't take sides with either party as I enjoy both (MACNA and RAG, NOT Democrat and Republican!!!)
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Republicans - \ri-ˈpə-bli-kənz\ noun: America's other left wing.
Thank you for your post. We hope to see more of you on RAG.
I have additional understanding of your MACNA 2007 from your post.
1) You want to put on a good event. You are to be commended.
2) You are concerned about costs. As you should be.
3) You don't have a need for RAG to use its web cams to show those unable to attend what is going on.
This is an indication that the minimal cost of RAG's assistance transulates into you not supporting future MACNA's.
Many folks (not able to attend) would see what is going at your MACNA, only if RAG brought its web cameras. Online viewing folks would most likely attend a future MACNA if it was in their area or they had the ability to visit.
Future MACNA events are related to past and present shows, their reputation and ability to support the organization's future efforts.
What leaves me scratching my head and wondering what you guys are thiniking is.... How can you expect RAG (and its well established support for various consumer events) or anyone to pay to support your profitable effort?
Your MACNA 2007 would benefit far more than RAG, regardless what amount, if any RAG would pay you.
You are still hinting for RAG's free online support in the form of promoting your 2007 event via use of threads and posts.
From what has been posted thus far, this is very one sided on your part.
I made a comment earlier that Pro Street was one way. Since Steven is simply one cog in the wheel, it becomes obvious that the MACNA 2007 event coordinators are operating from a One Way Street address.
As business advisor for RAG and a business person I find it unbelievable that 200K +/- will be generated and a low profit would be gained. This is either very poor business practice or mismanagement of funds.
Mismanagement of funds does not mean stealing or cheating. My defination means someone(s) should not be in control of money.
Virtually every post from your camp has been defensive vs. what "civilian" posts indicate as researched information.
Thus suspision has been raised regarding the basic integrity and true intentions of your 2007 MACNA. Especially with your effort to secure a tax shelter to intended profits.
Information posted in this thread will ultimately allow potential attendees to support or boycott your 2007 event.
As always, RAG supports MASNA, MACNA and IMAC and other events that benefit all in our hobby.
RAG will support IMAC 2007 and MACNA 2008.
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Michael Del Prete
CEO Aqua Craft Products www.AquaCraft.net
1) You want to put on a good event. You are to be commended.
2) You are concerned about costs. As you should be.
3) You don't have a need for RAG to use its web cams to show those unable to attend what is going on.
So far, we agree!
This is an indication that the minimal cost of RAG's assistance transulates into you not supporting future MACNA's.
Many folks (not able to attend) would see what is going at your MACNA, only if RAG brought its web cameras. Online viewing folks would most likely attend a future MACNA if it was in their area or they had the ability to visit.
Future MACNA events are related to past and present shows, their reputation and ability to support the organization's future efforts.
I think that you are trying to say that RAG’s webcam will generate attendance at future MACNA’s. Maybe you are correct, but just like any other advertising, we have to consider the value of that investment. We decided that what RAG had to offer was not a good value at the cost of what RAG was asking for. We are strongly committed to helping future MACNA’s. That is why we agree to open our books when the show is over. It is also why we want to have a financially successful (at least breaking even) show. If we don’t, we severely jeopardize the future of MACNA because no one will want to do it if they expect to lose money.
What leaves me scratching my head and wondering what you guys are thiniking is.... How can you expect RAG (and its well established support for various consumer events) or anyone to pay to support your profitable effort?
No one asked you to pay to support our event. We came up with the fairest system we could… a dollar for dollar exchange of services. We felt that what RAG was asking for was more than what we were asking for, so we asked RAG to pay the difference.
Why should MACNA pay to support RAG? If we give you more than we feel we are getting in return, that is what we would be doing.
Your MACNA 2007 would benefit far more than RAG, regardless what amount, if any RAG would pay you.
We respectfully disagree. Every registration, every booth, every dollar we give away or spend on advertising and promotion has to generate at least a registration, booth or dollar for MACNA or we lose money. That is how we define a good value. In our opinion, RAG was not offering a good value.
You are still hinting for RAG's free online support in the form of promoting your 2007 event via use of threads and posts.
From what has been posted thus far, this is very one sided on your part.
We aren’t asking for anything special. We are only asking that you don’t censor your own member’s discussion if it so happens that they want to talk about MACNA. Do you interfere with the discussion of any other product or event just because their manufacturers or hosts aren’t RAG sponsors?
I made a comment earlier that Pro Street was one way. Since Steven is simply one cog in the wheel, it becomes obvious that the MACNA 2007 event coordinators are operating from a One Way Street address.
I have no idea what this means. If you are suggesting that we aren’t offering any give-take, then I respectfully disagree. I reiterate my argument that if we can’t agree on an exchange that represents a mutually good value, then the discussion should be over.
As business advisor for RAG and a business person I find it unbelievable that 200K +/- will be generated and a low profit would be gained. This is either very poor business practice or mismanagement of funds.
Mismanagement of funds does not mean stealing or cheating. My defination means someone(s) should not be in control of money.
Our objective is to keep the costs of attendance within the reach of the most possible people while still operating in the black. That is why we have the lowest registration and hotel rates for any MACNA in four years. We will consider ourselves far more successful if we have record attendance than we would if we made a record profit.
Virtually every post from your camp has been defensive vs. what "civilian" posts indicate as researched information.
Thus suspision has been raised regarding the basic integrity and true intentions of your 2007 MACNA. Especially with your effort to secure a tax shelter to intended profits.
Of course we have been defensive. This thread is full of mis-information designed to make us look bad because MACNA and RAG couldn’t reach a business agreement. The suggestion that we are somehow trying to avoid taxes is a perfect example. We are seeking the tax designation that is recommended by our accountant.
Information posted in this thread will ultimately allow potential attendees to support or boycott your 2007 event.
Agreed. As I stated in my first post, I hope that each individual will see past this petty bickering and simply consider whether attending MACNA is a good value for their dollar. Sadly, I believe that this ridiculous argument will have poisoned so many of your staff and members against MACNA that they won’t even consider coming.
MACNA 2007 came up with the most fair and equitable way to exchange services with online message boards. RAG asked for more, and we did not feel that it would be good value. I really believe the only place we went wrong was allowing ourselves to be dragged into this ugly discussion, creating an opportunity for our intentions and integrity to be called into question.
As I stated in my earlier post, when our MACNA is over, our records will be made public, including gross receipts, net profit and any tax liability. Why would we publicly agree to do this if we have something to hide?
I really doubt I will post here again until I have the promised information from our MACNA. I have said it over and over…. MACNA and RAG couldn’t reach a mutual agreement on an exchange of services. There is nothing wrong with that. There really was no need for all of this discussion and continuing it only serves to make us all look petty.
RAG has wished you well, however you keep on going around and around with the same old crap! At least we actually went out and did some research to back ourselves up.
Why should this board even let one word about your MACNA 2007 on it? Wouldn't that be supporting an obviously messed up show? Thank God you jokers will not be in charge next year.
Interesting you used the word poisoned, as if there was any thing making you look bad or poisoning people against you, it was your own posts!
Information was laid out in a logical manner, with links and backed up but even though it was sitting there staring everyone right in the face, you come back with some other BS story about how that is not true.
Hmmm, here you sit with a quarter in your hand that everyone can truly see, but yet you say it is a penny and you want everyone to believe you and go against what they know is true and has been backed up.
You must really think we are stupid. We need Steven back, at least he was halfway comical in his efforts to spin the truth!
In the end, this isn't about the hobby or about marine anything, it's about money. Sites that can pay out the money are allowed to endorse MACNA, and those that cannot are left out. It's not about the future of the hobby or any other MACNA, it's about this particular event and the dollars produced.
I must say, this short sighted attitude and the whole "Only the big money sites can play" is a real change from past shows. This may not be your intention, but is most certainly reflected in your actions. I am as neutral as can be, but every time MACNA people post, I can't help but get the impression of "RAG is not welcome until they shell out the bucks". In closing, I can only commend Patrick for sticking to his guns and not paying for the privilege of having a MACNA banner on his site.
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Republicans - \ri-ˈpə-bli-kənz\ noun: America's other left wing.
every time MACNA people post, I can't help but get the impression of "RAG is not welcome until they shell out the bucks".
Every time someone from RAG posts I get the feeling "Rag will continue to try to discredit MACNA because they would not give us a booth, several extra registrations and free hotel rooms".
We need Steven back, at least he was halfway comical in his efforts to spin the truth!
Check with the site admins. It seems that his posting privledges were taken away.
I am done posting here. There is no cutting through this hostility. I will post a link to the promised information after the show. In the mean time, anyone who reads this and has any questions can contact me by PM or e-mail.
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