Of the boards I am aware of, it is 8th in terms of membership, 4th in threads, and 6th in total posts.
Nice how he twists what I said. This is what I really wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick
This has always worked well in the past having Reefs.org, Reefcentral.com, and ReefAquariumGuide.com getting this deal . . . been here since the internet revolution and have an EXTENSIVE userbase and database and 99.9% of the people visit these three. Additionally most of the other boards have started as an offshoot of these boards.
Now even though, RAG had a lot more users before I took over. I deleted all the inactive members from the userbase with ZERO posts. That took care of 50% of the members at that time. Then figure another 2/3rds were culled for having inactive email addresses. So lets do the math with REEF CENTRAL then and get some real numbers for comparison. So that means that RC actually has 47,000 active members in the last year. Compared to RAG's almost 9000, now doesn't that put it in perspective.
RAG has led the industry once again by culling inactive members. The other boards will tell you they do not cull inactive members as it makes them look bigger thus able to charge more for sponsors. Score one for RAG for honesty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Pro
But, as I said previously, I don't want to have to try to assign a value to any message board. I much prefer to use the values that the administrators of said boards have determined. Additionally, in every instance, I used numbers that are in your favor in determining the dollar for dollar swap (9 months versus 8 1/2 months of actual advertising and $75/month versus the discount rate). I do this so as to help everyone as a courtesy and to get the greatest number of participants. I would like to see everyone involved in the largest marine aquarium related event in the US.
Doesn't want to try and assign value? Wow, looks like that is what he is trying to do to me! The largest marine related event in the US? Shall we look at the history of Boston, the fiasco at D.C. the quality of Louisville, or what went on last year? I will let you do a search and find out the details to this, no need for me to rehash them here!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Pro
But the larger issue is that this series of communications is precisely why we came up with the policy that we have Everyone is treated the same. Now I understand that you will man your booth at all times and do things like the popcorn machine. To that end, there is some wiggle room. I can make sure you get a premium space in appreciation of what you do in comparison to other message boards.
Twists what I say again! Wow! This is what I really said!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick
As for the market share, there is a reason I do not have many sponsors nor charge even close to what RDO and RC do. Basically, I do not do this to make money, if the server fees are paid, I am happy. Plus, there is no way in HECK that I want to deal with all these vendors whining about each other etc etc.
I never said we would man our booth at all times!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick
I usually have one other person there besides myself and we spend 99% of the time in the booth and not attending speakers. The quality of speakers are not sufficiently advanced enough to warrant me taking the time to attend them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Pro
I believe I have layed out our policy as clearly and politely as possible. Whether or not RAG plays a part in MACNA is entirely up to you. I hope you will consider being part of the show, but in the event that you chose not to, I miss you my sincere best.
Really Steven, we only asked for what we have received in the past. We have been doing this for years and now we are not even given the basics that we have received in years past. Steven, your in the tank maintainence business, this is equivalent to you paying someone to take care of their tank, while doing whatever you can to make sure they get a raise at work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick
If MACNA cannot come close to these simple accomodations in relation to the things we do for these shows, then quite simply we will not promote the show.
Honestly, all the advertising for these shows are internet based. That is a given. This is an internet show, very little advertising except for flyers put up by the local club at the local fish store is done except for the internet.
I am not asking for 30 registrations with banquet like the other board, where these 30 people sit in the bar and drink between speakers and just use and abuse the show. We actually man the booth, and serve out TERRABYTES of webcams during the show. The last webcams were larger than the previous even considering that RC removed every thread about them on their boards during the show.
Why should I groom my members to go to these shows, promote these shows, use my bandwidth and my business just to turn around and spend thousands of dollars more just to attend a show that has attendees that are already on my board? Wouldn't I be better off spending that money on more SEO(search engine optimization) and an ad in magazines like we are running now than to come and talk to my members at a show whom I can already communicate with here on my board?
So basically, he wants to advertise on RAG for FREE, have RAG convince all our members to go to MACNA, to pay to go to MACNA, and on top of that pay them for the priveledge of giving them FREE advertising! I think not!
On our sponsors rate pages here is a quote that is very poignant!
Quote:
RAG and ASAP4U are professionally managed and administrated sites. Administrated by a business professional with the credentials, education, and qualifications needed to be viable in the e-commerce world.
Feel free to post the totality of our communications back and forth so that interested readers can get the entire story versus what has been selectively excerpted here. I am not ashamed of anything I wrote.
Patrick asked me to deal with the chore of RAG and the next MACNA.
I am surprised so much communication has transpired with no resolution to the participation of RAG and the support of your MACNA.
1) The numbers posted for membership to various sites is grossly misleading.
I believe RAG is the only marine aquarium related web site that periodically culls inactive members.
If RAG did not cull inactive members I believe there would be something like 40,000 +/-members listed for RAG.
The 8700+ are actual and active users.
Check the numbers of touted members vs. posts and threads with the information you provided. RAG's membership numbers are real.
2) I think you will agree that RAG's membership is perhaps the tighest core of marine keepers on the net. All the folks that infect aquarium sites with endless debating, fighting and personal attacks are gone. IMO, RAG has a membership that is best.
3) At past MACNA and IMAC events, RAG offered banners and the use of this board for promotion of these shows. This in return for a complementary booth, electrical and accomodations. Entrance passes for 5 are included for RAG personell and VIP RAG guests. The accomodations are for two rooms.
Traditionally RC asks for as many as 30 passes. Granted RC has a larger user base. Perhaps about 20,000 acutal users.
4) RAG provides multiple web cams to bring live video and audio to aquarists that are not able to attend these events. No other site offers this service. This draws great positive attention to the event, event planners, hosting club, etc.
5) RAG will provide a banner from now until the MACNA show dates. RAG will provide access to any and all (that abide by RAG rules of conduct) to post and/or promote MACNA. At the event RAG will provide web camera coverage. Advise if there are other things you would like RAG to provide?
This in exchange for: a) One complementary booth in a location of Patricks choice. This booth includes two 8' tables, 4 chairs, waste basket, electrical. b) Five complementary passes that include access to speakers and the banquet. c) Two rooms in the hotel where the event is being held.
If this is workable, it is possible Patrick might require something else.
6) What is curious to me is that you were asked to host a forum on RAG. You declined.
You were asked to participate in some discussions, you declined.
You use RAG at least two times a week. You check threads. You check archives.
It would be nice if you supported RAG, since you use the service.
7) Most of us are familiar with event planning. You are asking to use RAG to promote MACNA with little or no compensation. You are also asking RAG to pay $900.00 for a booth.
8) At this time, it looks like your group will net a minimum of $100,000.00 for this MACNA.
It is understood that if MACNA sells out all rooms in a given hotel block, you have no cost for the exhibition hall (booth spaces). I believe there is no cost for the aluminum pipe dividers and curtains used to separate booths. Thus, any and all booths in the exhibition hall cost MACNA nothing. This is 100% pure profit.
E.g. If you sell 100 booths for $900 each, that is $90,000.00
If you sell 800 tickets for $100 each, that is $80,000.00
You receive donations from various exhibitors (skimmers, tanks, etc.) these are raffeled off to attendees that purchase raffel tickets. I would estimate there is another $50,000.00 influx of cash to your treasury.
I am being generous with the numbers I have provided.
You have no print advertising costs. You will provide a complementary booth to Bowtie for printing your show guide.
Your main costs would include: honorarium and travel costs for speakers and insurance at the hotel. $4000.00 (or there abouts) to MASNA.
You will have no internet advertising or promotion costs, as you will or should trade a booth for these services.
There is nothing wrong with making a profit for earned efforts. Just don't squeeze a web site that operates at virtually no profit. This site can do you more good than $900.00 can.
Some find it offensive that the Chicago hobby club that hosted MACNA some years ago is still living well from their effort. The Houston group is still counting money.
Is there some kind of contest between MACNA hosts as to who will take in the most net profit?
It would be nice to provide all interested individuals an outside audit of where net proceeds went and to who.
No, I am not interested in promoting such an event. I have no knowledge of RAG planning such an event. These are simple observations that direct one to believe this MACNA is all about The Money.
At the same time, we continue to see posts on the internet from hobbyists that are having a difficult time supporting their chosen hobby. Has any MACNA group ever ... Given Back anything to anyone?
Considering MACNA is an internet driven event, I would think you would simply secure the services of as many marine aquarium web sites as possible.
It is understood that there are many marine sites. Most of which would not or could not afford the travel costs to exhibit at MACNA. Thus, they would be promoting your event and you would not be paying them anything.
9) This years MACNA group is applying for a 501(c)(3) tax exemption. This is a tax law to non-profit organizations. Exemptions apply to: corportations, community chest, fund or foundation, organized and operated for -- religious, charitable, scientific testing for public safety, literary or educational purposes or to foster national or international amateur sports competition, or for the prevention or cruelty to children or animals.
Where would your MACNA fit into these regulations?
Education? I find it difficult to comprehend any new education being offered at MACNA. It includes the same speakers found in past events. Most of the speakers have already provided information on their topic content at no cost online on various sites, forums, etc.
This is tongue in cheek... How can cutting a rock into pieces be educational?
Cruelty to animals? Who is to know if a rock or coral is in pain or discomfort when someone chips away at it or uses tools to create more pieces?
There is a great difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion. Just a friendly caution to a fellow aquarist.
Summary for this post:
RAG will provide what has been requested for simple exchange of what has been provided at past MACNA & IMAC events.
If I have missed some points or been inaccurate with this post content, please provide the correct information.
You are welcome to visit our complementary booth at MACNA (wink).
Cheers. MDP
__________________
Michael Del Prete
CEO Aqua Craft Products www.AquaCraft.net
Here is a transcript of Patrick and my communications on this subject to date.
Originally Posted by Patrick
Hello everyone! Superb MACNA this year! Just got home from Houston! That means it is time to plan for next years.
Will Reef Aquarium Guide be invited and provided a complimentary booth once again?
I have your banners already to go, just let me know what our status is.
Also Adelaide Rhodes is interested in being a speaker again for next years MACNA. We discussed it on Sunday.
Thus, you may want to contact her.
Best Wishes,
Patrick
Originally Posted by Steven Pro
We have not worked out the details of what we are going to do with messages boards. There were too many other things to get done. But thank you for contacting us. Could you please send along advertising information for your site? How much are banners? How many views do you get? Stuff like that.
Originally Posted by Patrick
Steven,
Actually since a separate club does MACNA each year, I find it easiest if no money exchanges hands. In the past we have done complimentary banners, direct mails, and of course the webcams in exchange for the complimentary booth and room.
The webcams were a huge hit this last year. They topped two TERABYTES in only 3 days! Two terabytes in 3 days with crappy optimized webstreams is huge!
Originally Posted by Patrick
Steven do I email you to pick our booth site or have you not gotten us figured out yet?
Originally Posted by Steven Pro
Send me an email, please.
Originally Posted by Steven Pro
Hello Patrick. I wanted to touch base with you again regarding getting a booth. Based on your questions in the thread on RAG it seemed you were interested. I hope my questions help to further fuel your interest. If you want to talk further about a booth, let me know.
Originally Posted by Patrick
Greetings Steven,
I had thought you had forgotten about us. Yes, we are still interested in the complimentary booth and room for RAG.
Patrick
Originally Posted by Patrick
Email sent on December 16, 2006 at 1:18pm
Have not received a response yet.
Originally Posted by Steven Pro
I didn't get your last email. Did you send it to XXXXXXXXXXXX? If not, try there.
Yes, it was sent to that address the last email I received from you was:
Hello Patrick. I wanted to touch base with you again regarding getting a booth. Based on your questions in the thread on RAG it seemed you were interested. I hope my questions help to further fuel your interest. If you want to talk further about a booth, let me know.
Originally Posted by Steven Pro
Well, that is weird. I don't see anything in my spam folder either. Maybe we should just stick to PM's right now.
I know there was all kinds of trouble last year and that was something we desperately wanted to avoid. I don't need the drama. I have enough going on with family, work, the new greenhouse, and now handling my MACNA duties, so I would prefer everything to be easy. To that end, our MACNA committee looked at the last year's issue to try to identify the problem. It seemed MARSH tried to create a uniform policy in dealing with the various message boards. I totally agree with this idea in principal. As I understand it, MARSH's solution though was to give everyone the same deal, a booth with two registrations. While that is necessarily equal, I don't believe it is fair. Any jerk can start a message board tomorrow. That person should not get the same deal as someone with a large established board, in my opinion. But, that means negotiating individual deals for each and every board, which would be frustrating and time consuming. So, we thought long and hard and I believe we have come up with a simple solution. A dollar for dollar exchange.
Booth prices and registrations tickets have been set based upon past attendance figures. Basically, the free market has dictated over the years what these things are worth. If the pricing was too high, few people would attend. But we know that both attendee and vendor numbers have increased every year. Similarly, if prices were too low, a MACNA would be overrun and have to turn people away. That has not happened.
By the same token, your banner ad pricing has been determined by the free market. A fair number of companies have determined that X dollars per month is a good investment given the visibility of the banners and the use of your forum to answer questions and in general let people know about them. So, I say we work from there. Determine our advertising needs and then give you a similar dollar for dollar exchange in booths and registrations. What do you think?
Originally Posted by Patrick
I guess my feelings are to keep the big 3 that have been around since before 1995 as a complimentary booth and two conference passes. This has always worked well in the past having Reefs.org, Reefcentral.com, and ReefAquariumGuide.com getting this deal as they are the biggest and have been here since the internet revolution and have an EXTENSIVE userbase and database and 99.9% of the people visit these three. Additionally most of the other boards have started as an offshoot of these boards.
As for the market share, there is a reason I do not have many sponsors nor charge even close to what RDO and RC do. Basically, I do not do this to make money, if the server fees are paid, I am happy. Plus, there is no way in HECK that I want to deal with all these vendors whining about each other etc etc.
I do not know, but what really annoys me, is the show is gracious enough to give these booths to people and the booth has a few flyers on the table and a banner hanging up. No one even mans the booth, meanwhile I make sure and try to do all kinds of things like bring the popcorn machine, or web cams or some other crazy thing. By having an empty booth with just a banner hanging and some papers on the table, that is just a slap in the face to the people putting on the show.
Anyhow, I think there are a lot more things to take into consideration that just market value of an advertising rate.
Originally Posted by Steven Pro
It does annoy me to no end when no one is manning a booth. I just don't know how to force people to take advantage of an opportunity given to them.
Also, there are additional complications. One board was asking for much more than a booth and two registrations. They wanted 30! So, we had to come up with a formula. We could have based it on number of registered members or threads or posts, but that seemed more complicated than the dollar for dollar exchange.
Originally Posted by Steven Pro
I see you banner rates are $75/month. I know you give discounts for longer subscriptions, but lets stick with the $75 as it works in your favor. If you start running our banner now, that would be just shy of 9 months. Nine times $75 is $675. Our booth rates are about to go up, but I would give you the early bird discount, $900. That would be a difference of $225 for a booth, all your drayage, electricity, water if you want to setup an aquarium, and two full registrations. While you may have gotten a booth and two registrations for free previously, you probably paid for electricity and drayage to the hotel. This could still work out even because of our packaging.
Originally Posted by Patrick
Let me put this succinctly, IMAC gives us whatever we like, and we do not abuse it, I usually have one other person there besides myself and we spend 99% of the time in the booth and not attending speakers. The quality of speakers are not sufficiently advanced enough to warrant me taking the time to attend them.
Generally this has included a free booth, with electricity included. During the last two shows, we have been given a room because of the webcams and managing the internet connections.
If MACNA cannot come close to these simple accomodations in relation to the things we do for these shows, then quite simply we will not promote the show.
Honestly, all the advertising for these shows are internet based. That is a given. This is an internet show, very little advertising except for flyers put up by the local club at the local fish store is done except for the internet.
I am not asking for 30 registrations with banquet like the other board, where these 30 people sit in the bar and drink between speakers and just use and abuse the show. We actually man the booth, and serve out TERRABYTES of webcams during the show. The last webcams were larger than the previous even considering that RC removed every thread about them on their boards during the show.
Why should I groom my members to go to these shows, promote these shows, use my bandwidth and my business just to turn around and spend thousands of dollars more just to attend a show that has attendees that are already on my board? Wouldn't I be better off spending that money on more SEO(search engine optimization) and an ad in magazines like we are running now than to come and talk to my members at a show whom I can already communicate with here on my board?
So, the question still is as posted, will RAG be part of MACNA in 2007?
Originally Posted by Steven Pro
I think it would be best to have a reality check at this point. RAG is not the third largest message board:
Of the boards I am aware of, it is 8th in terms of membership, 4th in threads, and 6th in total posts.
But, as I said previously, I don't want to have to try to assign a value to any message board. I much prefer to use the values that the administrators of said boards have determined. Additionally, in every instance, I used numbers that are in your favor in determining the dollar for dollar swap (9 months versus 8 1/2 months of actual advertising and $75/month versus the discount rate). I do this so as to help everyone as a courtesy and to get the greatest number of participants. I would like to see everyone involved in the largest marine aquarium related event in the US.
But the larger issue is that this series of communications is precisely why we came up with the policy that we have Everyone is treated the same. Now I understand that you will man your booth at all times and do things like the popcorn machine. To that end, there is some wiggle room. I can make sure you get a premium space in appreciation of what you do in comparison to other message boards.
I believe I have layed out our policy as clearly and politely as possible. Whether or not RAG plays a part in MACNA is entirely up to you. I hope you will consider being part of the show, but in the event that you chose not to, I miss you my sincere best.
You are also asking RAG to pay $900.00 for a booth.
At this time, it looks like your group will net a minimum of $100,000.00 for this MACNA.
It is understood that if MACNA sells out all rooms in a given hotel block, you have no cost for the exhibition hall (booth spaces). I believe there is no cost for the aluminum pipe dividers and curtains used to separate booths. Thus, any and all booths in the exhibition hall cost MACNA nothing. This is 100% pure profit.
You receive donations from various exhibitors (skimmers, tanks, etc.) these are raffeled off to attendees that purchase raffel tickets. I would estimate there is another $50,000.00 influx of cash to your treasury.
You have no print advertising costs. You will provide a complementary booth to Bowtie for printing your show guide.
Your main costs would include: honorarium and travel costs for speakers and insurance at the hotel. $4000.00 (or there abouts) to MASNA.
Is there some kind of contest between MACNA hosts as to who will take in the most net profit?
It would be nice to provide all interested individuals an outside audit of where net proceeds went and to who.
No, I am not interested in promoting such an event. I have no knowledge of RAG planning such an event. These are simple observations that direct one to believe this MACNA is all about The Money.
Considering MACNA is an internet driven event, I would think you would simply secure the services of as many marine aquarium web sites as possible.
This years MACNA group is applying for a 501(c)(3) tax exemption. This is a tax law to non-profit organizations. Exemptions apply to: corportations, community chest, fund or foundation, organized and operated for -- religious, charitable, scientific testing for public safety, literary or educational purposes or to foster national or international amateur sports competition, or for the prevention or cruelty to children or animals.
Where would your MACNA fit into these regulations?
Education? I find it difficult to comprehend any new education being offered at MACNA. It includes the same speakers found in past events. Most of the speakers have already provided information on their topic content at no cost online on various sites, forums, etc.
This is tongue in cheek... How can cutting a rock into pieces be educational?
Cruelty to animals? Who is to know if a rock or coral is in pain or discomfort when someone chips away at it or uses tools to create more pieces?
There is a great difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion. Just a friendly caution to a fellow aquarist.
You are welcome to visit our complementary booth at MACNA (wink).
I have contacted the hotel and was informed: if a designated block of rooms are sold out, the hotel provides the conference room (exhibitors room at no cost).
If there are inaccuracies... please point them out.
Thanks. MDP
__________________
Michael Del Prete
CEO Aqua Craft Products www.AquaCraft.net
I am unaware of any previous MACNA making more than $50,000. Which, is not what I am intereted in, but there is no way we will make anywhere near $100,000.
The booths are not free. We have taxes, electrical service, etc. that we have to pay for every free booth we give away.
Historically, MACNA's have netted $15,000-25,000 on the raffle.
We are doing all our own printing. We do not currently nor do I foresee having a deal with Bowtie or anyone else for that matter regarding printing.
Speaker costs are around $20,000-25,000 between airfare, hotel, meals, and honorarium.
I only wish to break even on this MACNA. If it appears we will make a winfall, we have already discussed maintaining discounted pricing for registrations and booths, adding additional coffee and breakfast services for attendees, buying more drinks, hors d'oeuvrses, upgraded meals at the banquet, anything to make the show more enjoyable.
We are the first MACNA to use Quickbooks so an audit would be exceptionally easy and we intend to post all our figures for future clubs to learn from.
PMASI is applying for 501(c)-7 status.
I believe you meant to say, "You are welcome to visit our complementary booth at IMAC." And, I would certainly stop by and say hello. I am a polite individual and I strive to treat everyone equally, fairly, and with respect. I believe I have done so in this instance.
I have contacted the hotel and was informed: if a designated block of rooms are sold out, the hotel provides the conference room (exhibitors room at no cost).
If there are inaccuracies... please point them out.
As for the figures I posted, these are done with a simple calculator and information resulting in counting: number and sale price of booths, number and cost of attendees, amount of free items provided as donations.
Past MACNA's have netter 100K. I know this. There are those in the Windy City is still consuming $90+ pizza's.
I looked over the number of exhibitors, attendee's and donations for the last MACNA. 100K was easily attainable.
If you wish to break even, I wonder why (I am speaking of your rewards vs. your efforts, in a stricly business nammer. Absolutely nothing personal.)
If you personally wish to break even, I know someone is making a huge profit.
Who would you pay for a booth given away, considering the floor space is given at no cost by the hotel?
So, what is the status of RAG getting what they requested?
Thanks for your promot attention to this matter.
MDP
__________________
Michael Del Prete
CEO Aqua Craft Products www.AquaCraft.net
I have the final figures for both WAMAS and MARSH MACNA's and have discussed LMAS's events in-depth. Perhaps Chicago did make an obscene amount of money. I don't know. BRS claims to have broken even, but I don't know how much faith I would put in that figure. I do know what our budget is and what our intentions are. Money is the least of our concerns. I just want to put on a good show. To me MACNA is about educational and commradiere. If you come to MACNA (or IMAC for that matter), you will learn but you should also do this in a friendly atmosphere. If everyone goes home with new ideas swirling in their heads after having a fabulous time, I will consider MACNA XIX a success regardless of the money. I cannot make any money anyhow. Everyone in PMASI is precluded from making any money from anything we do, so this is a labor of love for me.
As to the booths, the fine print is where they get you. The space is free as is the piping and draping (a significant cost svaings over past events), but we must still pay for electrical service to every booth, taxes to the municipality, internet and phone service to any booths that need it, and MASNA fees all regardless of whether or not the booths is bought and paid for or given away for free.
MACNA & RAG
And, I would certainly stop by and say hello. I am a polite individual and I strive to treat everyone equally, fairly, and with respect. I believe I have done so in this instance.
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