All those things you mention are quite terrible. However, as far as I know, none of them were done by a leader of our hobby.
No, just by us as a hobby, who are now throwing stones at someone who actualy has done, and trys to do, research on the animals that we kill on a daily basis. What have you done with the corals in your tank? How many have you killed? Did their deaths contribute to any knowledge at all? Oh but wait, as long as its U.S. corals or reefs, then its a problem. But its okay to have indo pacific reefs ripped out by their roots for your aquariums though. Thats cool, I get it now. Thanks.
No, just by us as a hobby, who are now throwing stones at someone who actualy has done, and trys to do, research on the animals that we kill on a daily basis. What have you done with the corals in your tank? How many have you killed? Did their deaths contribute to any knowledge at all? Oh but wait, as long as its U.S. corals or reefs, then its a problem. But its okay to have indo pacific reefs ripped out by their roots for your aquariums though. Thats cool, I get it now. Thanks.
And if he were just an ordinary hobbyist and if these were indo-pacific corals that he purchased and personally owned, then yeah, maybe it wouldn't be such a big deal. But even then, we're talking about *hundreds* of pounds of corals... truck loads! No matter who took them or for what purpose, I'd be quite upset when they were allowed to perish (even if it was by accident). The fact that they were protected Florida corals only makes the situation that much more alarming.
Look, if you want to argue that Mr. Borneman is a good guy who simply made a mistake, fine. You can sing that to your heart's content. But that doesn't change anything. You can't argue for someone's innocence by pointing out the faults of others. It just doesn't work that way.
This is a long post made by a pioneer marine fish breeder (1971), an individual that has intimate contact with coral reproduction (1974), the first captive reproducetion of chambered nautilus (1979), (all in 100% artifical sea water and currently responsible for about 30%-35% of the worlds marine salt needs.
Dear Fellow Marine Aquarium Keepers:
The fate of all natural reefs are in the hands of those that understand conservation.
The fate of corals kept in captivity are in the hands of reef aquarium keepers.
Earlier in this thread I posted (#80) .... "I have met Eric, seen his presentations and read much of his material. I am not surprised that live stock died in his hands. I believe he is better qualified at taking underwater photos vs. captive live stock management."
I have been reluctant to post the following. The following background information pertains to this thread.
I attended one of Eric Bornemans presentations on reef aquarium keeping in Sept. 2005 in California. On the way over to his presentation I said to my SO (significant other).... "Don't let me expect too much from this man".
During his talk he gave a visually stimulating power point presentation. In this presentation charts and graphs were shown along with verbal information as to their meaning. Shown were underwater as well as his personal aquarium photos.
One split screen slide showed a reef sea bottom photo on the left and one of his aquarium photos on the right. He stated "I cannot keep the diversity of sea life found on the reef in my aquariums."
Later in his presentation he stated that he did not have a filter, skimmer or make water changes on his aquarium.
He stated that after a water change is corals appeared to suffer. He gave the brand of marine salt he was using.
I thought.... No filter... no skimmer.... no water changes... and he is using (IMO) a poor choice of marine salt. No wonder this guy cannot keep a variety of captive marine life.
In his presentation he stated that he mixed 35 grams of his chosen marine salts into one liter of fresh water and it resulted with 32 ppt. He believed the reason 35 grams of marine salts mixed in one liter of fresh water measured low (32 ppt.) vs. 35 ppt. had something to do with marine salts.
I got the feeling as others in the audience did that Eric believed all marine salts mixed like this.
One attendee stated something to the effect that.... These salt makers better get their stuff together! -- Eric planted the seed that all marine salts had one problem or another.
I raised my hand and asked why he (Eric) thought his brand of marine salts mixed to a low salinity. He started to talk about something else. I asked again. He talked about something half related to the question I posed. I stopped asking this question as I did not want to upstage his presentation.
After his presentation the usual group of reef groupies lined up to shake his hand thus allowing them to have fond memories of the event.
The meeting ended about 22:00 and the facility was locked down. Eric and I stood outside under an outdoor light and chatted for almost one hour. It was prearranged that I would give him two 25 gallon size packages of BIO-SEA Marinemix for a "salt study". My SO sat in the car.
I asked Eric three times, in three different ways why he thought that 35 grams of marine salts mixed into one liter of clean fresh water hydrated a low salinity solution. He had no clue.
I asked him if he understood about hydrates in marine salts? He gave me a blank look. I broke it down simpler. I informed him that some brands contain more moisture than others. The moisture (water) comes from the choice of ingredients and their hydrates. E.g. Calcium can be totally without moisture (anhydrous), or with 2 molecules of water (2H20), or more. -- I got a deeper blank stare.
I stopped talking about marine salt chemistry as I realized this well known aqua guru that has made dozens and dozens, possibly hundreds+ of hobby oriented presentations was totally clueless about basic marine salt chemistry.
I.e. Here is a guy that is going for a Ph.D., is popular among many marine aquarium hobbyists and: a) openly indicated he did not make water changes, used a filter, skimmer, etc. b) could not keep a wide variety of marine organisms in his tanks, (many of which thrive in many others aquariums) c) had no idea about hydrates in marine salts.
He asked me about hW Marinemix manufactured in Germany. He told me he heard it was a pretty good marine salt. But he could not find any to test or use.
I took a half step back, tried to conceal my amusement and replied with the following...... "You are from Houston, TX, right?" He said "yes." I said... hW Marinemix has been imported into the USA from Germany since the mid to late 1960's by Hawaiian Marine Imports, located in ........ Houston, TX. -- I thought, this guy has never visited any LFS in his home town. At least not in the last 3+ decades.
I have no idea if he misled US Govt. officials into granting him a collecting permit, over collected and/or took over sized corals, violated other permits conditions, had direct contact with their captive destination, had anything to do with any sales that might have been made, replaced lost corals with fauna from another ocean, etc?
However IMO his aquarium keeping skills are limited. As a researcher, in regards to locating a local product available for 35+ years are poor at best. Most importantly, like many with a great amount of education/information they can exhibit very little understanding.
Like many Ph.D.'s or teachers, it is impossible to tell them anything. But he is not a Ph.D. or a teacher!
I made this long post for several reasons:
1) I had to get this off my chest. This described event as well as this thread topic are definitely related.
2) Here is someone traveling around to hobby groups and expounding what is limited to ill researched to half baked information. There are hundreds to thousands of hobbyists that lap this rubbish nonsense up!
3) How can anyone with these marine aquarium keeping skills and research ability be granted a US Govt. collecting and custody permit for doing anything but looking at corals (in someone else's aquarium)?
4) His salt study offered in 2006 presented at the last MACNA cannot be taken serious. E.g. Is there any salt water hobbyist that has kept a marine aquarium that performs 100% water changes as a routine?
The BIO-SEA I gave him ended up at Inland Marine for their salt study. No Aqua Craft Products marine salts were part of Eric's 2006 salt study. The Inland salt test was botched as bad as Eric's effort. But in different ways.
5) There are too many glorified hobbyists with ego maniacal personalities that travel around or post on the internet for totally self serving reasons.
On the way back home my SO and openly discussed the value of his presentation. Not one good word was said by either of us.
__________________
Michael Del Prete
CEO Aqua Craft Products www.AquaCraft.net
"Look, if you want to argue that Mr. Borneman is a good guy who simply made a mistake, fine. You can sing that to your heart's content. But that doesn't change anything. You can't argue for someone's innocence by pointing out the faults of others. It just doesn't work that way."
I'm simply argueing the case that a man should be presumed innocent untill proven guilty, and so far, you have not proven anything except to throw an incomplete story out and make a lot of accusations based on such. You claim to be a law student?
By the way, sorry I took so long to reply, I actualy had something more constructive to take care of, such as visiting a survey site and setting some frags from my tank onto a newly algae cleared coral head. What have you done today besides beat the crap out of someone based on the very limited info you have?
Okay, a guy who sells salt for a living doesnt like Eric, I guess thats more proof of his wrong doing. I missed the point other than the statements about Erics reef keeping skills are way off the mark. I've seen his tanks and the corals he not only keeps, but gets them to reproduce. I would kill to have my tank look half as good as his does and to have the success with coral recruits that he does. But regardless, one man's dislike for Eric (or a thousand for that matter) proves what? His guilt? Whats next? We toss Eric into a pool and burn him at the stake if he floats? GIVE ME SOME PROOF!!!! ALL OF IT!! But you can't, so lets just beat the crap out him for fun. Okay, I've reached that point yet again. And as usual, I had forgotten that my effort to instill a sense of fair play is not near as fun as bashing someone with accusations, and now testimonials, the only next step is to form a lynch mob and go hang the sucker. Who needs proof or god forbid, an actual court of law. I gotta quit this, I am not getting anywhere fast (as usual) and am only ruining my evening. Ya all have at it.
Hold the presses! This quote as used above to condemn Eric's ability at reef keeping is VERY misleading "He stated "I cannot keep the diversity of sea life found on the reef in my aquariums."
Misleading because NO ONE can keep all the diversity of life found on a reef alive (all at the same time) in an aquarium. NO ONE! I pull live rock and live sand right out of the ocean and its in my tank in a matter of minutes, not hours, but minutes. After just a month or two, the majority of the life found in such substrates is gone. Not becuase I am a lousy reef keeper, but because of the very nature of an enclosed tiny space. I will save you the two page explanation of why that occurs, but to use that statement against Eric is misleading.
Sorry, but I just could not let that one slide past me. And yet another Ego raises its ugly head.
I knew you would post. In fact, I think that most that view this thread were expecting your latest reply.
I agree arguing with someone that has not yet made any replies is futile.
My post had nothing to do any argument. I stated my qualifications and what I witnessed.
This is not a matter of who likes who. This is a matter of responsibility and respect for live animals.
If this matter is pursued in the legal system, his innocence or guilt will be determined by the courts.
Now for the important part..............
If you are pulling live rock, sand and other organisms from the natural reef, keeping it in captivity using NSW for a month or two and witnessing the majority of live on the substrate gone... STOP IT.
Which online aqua gure buddy do you get your information from?
I have personally seen marine aquarium keepers in the Philippines, Indonesia and Cuba set up basic systems, take live organisms from the sea, place them in their tanks and then replace them every a few weeks to months as they die off!
This IS NOT marine aquarium keeping. This is a display of complete disregard for the living organisms you currently and others that exhibit this behavior. This is complete idiocy!
What you and others are doing that continue to kill off untold numbers of marine organisms will result in law being crafted to halt the mass genocide of animals that are helpless against your hands.
Those that do this are not concerned for our environment or ecology. They currently have an unlimited availability of live animals to kill off! Some people do this as a hobby. Some do this under the guise of research.
The difference between my qualfications (one that works to keep the animals alive in captivity) and your qualifications (one that plays at watching them die in captivity) is great. Too great to allow you or those that do what you do to continue.
No matter what dives people to take living organisms and watch them die off is simply wrong.
You should quite this. Quite posting as you admit you are no more than an internet buddy of Eric. You should quite killing off animals!
__________________
Michael Del Prete
CEO Aqua Craft Products www.AquaCraft.net
By the way, sorry I took so long to reply, I actualy had something more constructive to take care of, such as visiting a survey site and setting some frags from my tank onto a newly algae cleared coral head. What have you done today besides beat the crap out of someone based on the very limited info you have?
Are you asking to hear about my day? That's cute, ok...
Well, let's see... I worked on ASIRA, did some law school HM, wrote a thank you letter to my scholarship donor, chatted with a few friends, went out to dinner with this gorgeous neurosurgeon who happens to me my husband... watched AMW and 48 hour mystery... all-in-all, a pretty good day.
But anyway, I'll let you guys go at it... I have to finish a paper for school today (oddly enough, it's about the regulation of aquarium products).
Sihaya: There should be some regulation regarding aquarium products. Many are rushed to market prior to suffecient R & D and functional testing.
Unfortuniately those that exhibit Chucks behavior should be regulated. Regulated right out of the position of taking living animals and killing them!
IMO, regulated from using the internet for posting meaningless dribble.
Most salt water aquarium keepers would love to be in a position of being close to the natural reef. To have an aquarium that could be filled and maintained with natural sea water. To be able to walk a few meters, jump into the ocean and collect what ever is within arms reach.
Imagine...... having the ability to take live rock, live sand, corals, coral fish, etc. Placing them into your aquarium within minutes of capture. No collecting with cyanide (I hope). Making as many water changes as you want.
No worry about lighting as sunlight illuminates your tank.
No worry about feeding filter feeders as you are collecting NSW right from the place where you took these exotic animals.
No stress from handling, packaging, waiting in closed containers at airports, rough handling from the point of collection to being placed in an importers tanks.... no shipping out within hours to dealers world wide... no placement in LFS tanks.... no high cost at the retail level.... NO STRESS assocated with the usual chain of events we all deal with.
Imagine watching these newly collected animals die off! -- What is wrong with this picture? -- I know this type of personality/mentality and I cannot bring myself to even connect the dots!
I would think if this were the case, someone with these tremendous advantages would try to figure out what was killing off their freshly captures animals... vs.... simply replacing them on a regular basis.
Is it the lack of filtration? Is it the rough handling of the animals. It is an obvious lack of understanding regarding animal husbandry and/or ability to know the differences between the open sea and the close aquarium.
__________________
Michael Del Prete
CEO Aqua Craft Products www.AquaCraft.net
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