Of all the things to be nauseous about I would think that posts on a website discussing pros and cons of an industry leader (at least in the past) and his actions regarding an event would not rank very high. I did experience nausea last week when a flu bug was going around at work thoug.
The accusations leveled against others here early in the thread stated things like "If you can't provide documentation" or "If you won't identify who told you then you cannot speak."
May I use the same logic?
If you have documentation but won't show it, If you refuse to address what those in the industry question, If you state that all of the facts are not known but will not provide them, may I quote those who believe in you and demand (no I'm not that rabid) request that you provide the information or at least explain?
EB, I question you. Like the root of the word question I quest (seek) for the truth of the matter. Anyone can call me a witch for seeking that and great scientists such as Galileo were in fact called witches for disagreeing with the "truth" as dictated by the ruling "authority" of the day. I think it is the high road for me (thanks to my father) to question those who lead when I do not understand a perceived problem or want to know more about what happened. On this high road that we are on, I'd like there to be a plateau where the questions are asked and are answered. I have not yet found this plateau.
To answer Frogbone: Has anything been accomplished....in this thread?
Yes. Some great things have been accomplished.
This whole things is spinning around in a circle and isn't going anywhere...
A centrifuge spins in a circle too. Do you know what a centrifuge does? Scientists do. Oh, crazy people in Iran do too. I'm not saying scientists are crazy people.
In my opinion this thread is.....a platform for a onesided agenda.
Yes it is but the agenda is not to find a witch. It is to get a complete story. Remember the original post asks for answers.
Don't you people have anything better to do ?
Other people might have higher priorities like firefighters care more about fighting fires and doctors care more about treating human woes. As a reefkeeper, I am naturally more concerned about those who work with corals. I do not hold it against you in any way if you are not bothered by the apparent documented mishandling of endangered corals. In your own hobbies and interests you have better things to do and I understand that. There is even more documentation but it is currently unavailable in another person's possesion.
Personally, I would feel obligated to answer for any slight either real or perceived. That's just how I was raised though.
Patrick - even the president of the United States has to answer for slights real and imagined.
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Ask me why you shouldn't go to Friends University!
Of course he "knows some stuff"... all the more reason why what went on with this project is so shocking. You'd THINK he'd know better than to let something like this happen.
Now I know where I heard the name EB; I couldn't place it for the longest time. Seems like he knows some stuff to me.
Yep, he knows how to frag some corals, just like I do, that is there for those who are just starting in this hobby and have not a clue, like I was once.
While is is OK to disagree with someone, it is not OK to make personal attacks on other members, or insult other members.
This is a very controversial topic, and like all such topics, there are people that feel very strongly one way or the other on the issues at hand. Please respect each others views.
As a sidebar - I have had to remove or edit more posts on this topic than than all other topics put together. This is not something I enjoy doing. I would much rather be responding to other posts. However, I will moderate this thread and all others as necessary.
Has anything been accomplished....in this thread?
Yes. Some great things have been accomplished. ...
Personally, I would feel obligated to answer for any slight either real or perceived. That's just how I was raised though.
...
This is an open question to all RAG members. What do you feel has been accomplished by this thread on RAG?
Sometimes it's better to just ignore the minor slights in order to keep the peace. Somtimes answering a slight makes you look even worse, even if you are in the right.
I did not mean to answer a slight in the same manor it was fired but I see that is how it could look. If someone says something that (fill in the blank with bothers, insults, peodes, etc.) then I will let that person know how the post made me feel and usually explain that I know that offense was not intended.
As far as what has been accomplished - I intentionally kept my answer to that question to myself to see first how others respond. I will post what I think is the accomplishment to date at a later date.
Minor slights are, of course, subject to interpretive intent. I mean calling someone a Stoner could mean a drug addict, a stone crab fisherman, a quarry operator. I suppose it would depend on which one I was to determine if I would consider it a slight. This little (analogy) example is just a teaching tool which helps people to understand.
You've done a good job Dave at keeping personal jabs out of the thread. Thank you.
EB - I'm still interested to know your side. After brainstorming, I can think of several reasons why you may be blameless even though the "documents" indicate otherwise.
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Ask me why you shouldn't go to Friends University!
I'm still interested to know your side. After brainstorming, I can think of several reasons why you may be blameless even though the "documents" indicate otherwise.
Seriously? I'd be curious to hear your ideas. While I certainly see the argument that Mr. Borneman did nothing criminal or even too grossly immoral, I'm not sure I see much a case for him being entirely blameless (no matter what his side of the story is). In my personal opinion, Mr. Borneman was, at best, careless and irresponsible. I just can't imagine any respectable scientist taking that many corals to a commercial distributor and leaving their care to the wholesalers who were not researchers and not trained to care for these kinds of corals at all. This is just not any responsible way to do research.
Seriously? I'd be curious to hear your ideas. While I certainly see the argument that Mr. Borneman did nothing criminal or even too grossly immoral, I'm not sure I see much a case for him being entirely blameless (no matter what his side of the story is). In my personal opinion, Mr. Borneman was, at best, careless and irresponsible. I just can't imagine any respectable scientist taking that many corals to a commercial distributor and leaving their care to the wholesalers who were not researchers and not trained to care for these kinds of corals at all. This is just not any responsible way to do research.
While I won't speak for Cuddle, I will give you my perception. Keep in mind, I haven't been interested enough to read the documents. If he was at best, careless and irresponsible; well who hasn't been? I fully understand that his level of carelessness and irresponsibility may have been on a grander scale than a single reefkeeper, but as a whole, there are enough new threads started on Reef Central alone to indicate there are quite a number of people out there killing off large quantities of animals.
Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but as someone who works in the medical field I am surrounded by scientists (we have two enormous research buildings in our complex.) Every scientist I have ever run into has a PhD; at this time I believe EB does not hold such a degree and is therefore he should not be regarded as one. The reason I bring this up is because (in my view) the U.S Government (an agency of which I am trying to become an ex-employee) decided to hand over "National Assets" (as we'll call 'em) to an individual who may not have had the proper credentials to care for these animals. Why should the U.S. Gov't be let off the hook? If they were to have given them to a group of school children and the results were the same, would there be a website dedicated to telling the world of their doings?
Call me old fashioned, but I don't believe in trial by internet. If the guy doesn't want to talk about it, he has that right (check the U.S Constitution if you don't believe me.) Everyone here is entitled to their opinion of the man; I respect that. This thread hasn't swayed me in the least bit, one way or the other. It has been interesting, that is for sure!!
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Republicans - \ri-ˈpə-bli-kənz\ noun: America's other left wing.
there are enough new threads started on Reef Central alone to indicate there are quite a number of people out there killing off large quantities of animals.
Sure, but this is *Eric Borneman.* This dude is supposed to be our hobby's leader... our rock star... author of the "Corals" book, yadda yadda. Not to mention, he's a graduate student in marine biology. Now seriously, given all that, if you're still holding him to the same standard as the average reef hobbyist, then I suspect you never had any special level of respect for him to begin with... and thus this news shouldn't be of much interest or surprise to you.
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Call me old fashioned, but I don't believe in trial by internet.
Fair enough... though, the man has certainly put enough people on internet trial himself. Now, please don't make me quote Justin Timberlake... lol
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If the guy doesn't want to talk about it, he has that right (check the U.S Constitution if you don't believe me.)
Of course he doesn't have to talk... and no one is forcing him to. Honesty, I personally care if he does or not.
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