Now seriously, given all that, if you're still holding him to the same standard as the average reef hobbyist, then I suspect you never had any special level of respect for him to begin with... and thus this news shouldn't be of much interest or surprise to you.
I think you nailed it right there. Damn, your good!!
__________________
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. -Thomas Jefferson
Last edited by Paramecium; 04-27-2007 at 04:20 AM.
Sara, Are you saying that leadership and industry representatives should be held to a higher standard?
(This is an intentional land mine set to ambush dear Sara whom I've grown to like)
Sara, Are you saying that leadership and industry representatives should be held to a higher standard?
Ok, watch me work here... I'm going to say that they should be held to a higher standard whenever they invite us to consider them as being of that higher standard. Thus, from the first moment Mr. Borneman invited us all to consider him as more than just a hobbyist (and indeed, as a scientist) that is the moment hence-forth-which he need be held to the higher standards of a scientist rather than just a hobbyist.
On the other hand... take Steven Pro for example. Steven does small (but still intriguing) hobby experiments. However, to my knowledge, the man has never invited us to consider him as a scientist (nor claims that his experiments have "rigor" as true scientific research experiments). He's a hobbyist (albeit a great hobbyist even). And he knows he's a hobbyist. And he doesn't invite us to think anything of him beyond that. Therefore, there's no reason to hold him to the same standards as we'd hold a researcher in science because he's simply never asked us to consider him as such.
Quote:
(This is an intentional land mine set to ambush dear Sara whom I've grown to like)
RE: Steven Pro, so we should pay money to see a hobbyist speak at a conference?
Well, maybe not just any average hobbyist, but why not a particularly accomplished hobbyist? Robert Fenner, Anthony Calfo, Julian Sprung... these men are all hobbyists, not scientists. I think Steven qualifies as a particularly accomplished hobbyist. And I think he gives good lectures. And actually, in general, I've enjoyed his lectures more than I have Mr. Borneman's. (Though, granted, I haven't been to all that many of either... maybe 4 each.) Of course... his more recent out-of-character personal attacks on myself and posters here has put me off a bit (but if it weren't for that, I certainly would have planned, and looked forward, to his lectures at IMAC and MACNA this year).
The reality is that I doubt we'll ever be able to get so many scientists and "real" researchers (that can also speak well) into the hobby enough to fill MACNA and IMAC with only scientist speakers. And even if we could, I don't think we'd want that. I think we need both... great practicing hobbyists and people in touch with real science.
Bottom line is... we need to cut the BS. We need to stop having hobby "studies" presented as "rigorous research." And perhaps, just maybe, we should expect a little more of ALL our leaders AND ourselves. The hobby is in desperate need of better connection and integration with the academic world and established scientific knowledge. In general, as a hobby, I think we could all use a little more intellectual integrity, a little more responsibility when it comes to our "fact-checking" and being honest about and aware of what we know and don't know... and need to know.
I'll never forget my first day of high school physics class. The teacher told us that all objects have a gravitational pull towards each other (which is true). He then passed around a stapler and a tape dispenser and told us if held them really close together, but not touching, we could actually feel the objects being pulled towards each other. As we each tried this, he would ask "can you feel it?" And of course, we all said "oh yeah! I can feel it..." After everyone was now convinced that we could feel the gravitational pull between a stapler and a tape dispenser, he said "First lesson... you're all idiots!" LOL He explained: "There's no way in hell you could feel the gravitational pull between those two objects... you only thought you did because I told you were. You were not thinking! Never make that mistake again!"
::sigh:: I miss that guy.
Sad too, I'm sure I've made the not-thinking mistake many times since then... and believed someone on blind faith when I really shouldn't have (I think everyone has done it at least once ).
I believe those in a position of leadership should be held to higher standards. This includes political as well as qualified aquarium leaders.
Leaders offer guidance to the masses. The masses follow what qualified leaders offer. The key word is qualified.
Aquarium industry leaders are those that have researched and presented originally generated information that has been completely thought out, without bias. This includes manufacturers of what are generally agreed to be superior items. Both require funding not usually in the hands of glorified hobbyists that plague the internet.
The internet has spawned a clutch of individuals that now have a platform to expound on their expertise. Those that engage in self promotion by performing half baked salt studies.... offer their questionable services at various hobby meetings, only to raise more questions than provide meaningful guidance....have published or self publish books with conflicting statements.... cannot be considered leaders.
In reviewing the content of this thread, it is evident that those in question cannot be recognized as leaders.
As for representatives in the aquarium industry, this usually means sales reps. These folks are bound to garner orders for the goods they sell. Unfortunately most sales reps. will say or do just about anything to... get the sale.
__________________
Michael Del Prete
CEO Aqua Craft Products www.AquaCraft.net
I have moved these posts from the thread on EB and the corals to a new thread. Leadership in the hobby is a somewhat different topic, and deserves a new thread.
There are a lot of excellent points being made. Yes, I do agree that any leader of the hobby should be held to a much higher standard.
First, as MDP points out, others take them seriously. When SW aquariums were first doable, there were almost no decent books available on the subject. Even the few you did find, and judging by th standards of that time, contained a massive quantity of incorrect information.
How did they ever get the "data" necessary to publish anything? Well, they obviously did not. At best it was their own personal experience, with some input from a few others they knew.
Second, much is motivated by the one time quick sale. Now in most other areas, I don't have a big problem with this, but in an industry like pets, poor quality equipment along with the lack of knowledge, are a plague on the hobby.
If you want to do an interesting experiment sometime, take any catalog published by one of the major online aquarium companies. Take a pen and put an "X" through any product that you consider to be out and out junk. In other words, products that work so bad that they shouldn't even exist. You'll be amazed how many "X" you'll need, especially in areas like skimmers, additives, pumps, medications, lighting, and salt. Notice that this covers some major areas of the hobby.
What do all these products have in common, besides being useless? They all exist to make a fast sale to an unsuspecting buyer, and often doom the buyer to failure in the hobby.
Leadership: The ability to influence others to accomplish tasks by providing them with purpose, direction, and motivation.
Now that we have defined "Leadership", let's talk about those that are considered leaders, and see if they are providing us with leadership or if they are nothing more than glorified hobbyists.
Steven Pro is currently building a greenhouse for corals; the thread can be read on another forum, and is very interesting to read. I think it's excellent that he is building his own facility for providing this hobby with aquacultured corals. There are only a handful of these facilities that I am aware of in the U.S., so he is certainly one of the few who are taking things to this level. While this is certainly something that I think brings great credit to himself and the hobby, he isn't (in my view) providing leadership. Being the first to do something or at the forefront of a new idea is good enough for some folks (they are the "follow the leader" types), but again this is not what I consider to be leadership.
E.B. Well, I only read the last thread and saw a video of him offering advice on fragging corals. I never read any of his books or articles, so like the very first post in this thread, I don't put him on any sort of pedestal.
Anthony Calfo: I never read any of his books, only saw a video of a topic he discussed: Coral farming for profit. Good lecture, but not motivating. He gave purpose, and was vague with direction. Since this is the only info I know about him, I do not consider him a leader; not that I won't change my mind later on should he do or say something that really impressed me.
I guess I could go on, but I am quite unfamiliar with reef keeping leadership. I think MDP is making a good point with regards to giving qualified information for which you yourself are qualified to give. Steven Pro may be an excellent source of info for growing corals for profit; he has done this and knows where many mistakes are made. Does this qualify him to discuss other aspects of the hobby to which he may be as clueless as the rest of us?
If you want to be a leader in this hobby, great! If you are a follower (like me), you should be careful of whom you choose as your leader. PhD or no PhD, I am not adding Prestone Driveway Heat to my tank as a form of calcium because a chemist says it's okay. This is the fine line that I walk; seeing who has credentials vs. who is qualified to discuss any matter at hand.
__________________
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. -Thomas Jefferson
Last edited by olsaltybastard; 05-02-2007 at 06:06 PM.
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