Not applicable? huh?
I said I disagree with the statement that salt sold in buckets was a hazard to our tanks.
The buckets are food grade buckets, (this means you can put things for human consumption in them without hazard) This would lead me to think that maybe salt for fish tanks put in the same buckets is likely safe.
As far as Rubbermaid goes, they make a number of different compounds including "Food Grade" containers. If you buy food storage or trash storage, you can expect different issues. Yes, if you buy a big plastic trash can, you should probably age it a bit (ever been in a motorhome with plastic tasting water?)
I guess I fail to understand why you resist this idea that one of the largest if not the largest makers of salt for the trade is using quality buckets and not putting my livestock in peril.
When a competitor comes on a message board and makes a broad statement that salt sold in buckets is a danger, I just felt that required a bit of justification and not just a stamp of approval. As he is in fact a seller of salt for tanks, it could lead to some belief that perhaps there is just a bit of conflict of interest. (I do work in medical research and so am rather familiar with these types of issues)
I shall disengage from posting further here as it would appear that asking for justification from users with high post counts or moderators is frowned upon
I shall disengage from posting further here as it would appear that asking for justification from users with high post counts or moderators is frowned upon
I think you posted this on the WRONG board! This is Reef Aquarium Guide not the hostile board!
I understand that you do not want to post further but I will, for at least my own sake, respond to what has been written.
Not applicable was referring to a salt seller, not a plastic seller. Can Bob comment on salt? Absolutely! Can he respond to questions about polymers, resins, inks, dyes, or plastics? Maybe. I don't know what his Organic Chemistry background is.
Many things made for human consumption are not good for animals and some are not so great for people either.
I have been in a motorhome with plastic tasting water. Does being in a motorhome mean that its safe/dangerous? As I said before, testing is required. Does the plastic taste mean its safe for an aquarium? Again, more tests are needed. Chloramines are safe for human consumption. I think you know that they are not safe for fish. Safe for human consumption does not mean safe for fish. There are many otems thought safe for human consumption and opps were pulled off of the market after they were tested.
The failure is not mine. The failure is that there have not been tests to demonstrate plastic is safe for fish. IO cannot be a failure because it doesn't even make the buckets it uses and has to assume as you do that if people can eat off of it then it must be safe for fish to swim in water stored in it.
I gave justification and kept it civil. If you choose to not post then fine. It doesn't look like we will connect the dots in the same way. I don't personally understand how working in medical research in some form makes you familiar with conflicts of interest but I will take your word for it.
Since you work in medical research you might be familiar with the practice of washing both plastic utensils and glassware in a lab when they are new unless they were already washed and were sealed to maintain sterility. Why do medical researchers do that?
As you are new I am going to make an assumption. Forgive me if I am wrong. I am a proponent of NSW. Mr. Del Prete and I have disagreed on the efficacy of NSW but I do not use his salt. NSW can introduce a whole other realm of nasties to water. Ergo, there cannot be a conflict of interest with me here. I do however respect him because he is well educated in the realm of chemistry (at least in inorganic chemistry) and has a pretty good amount of hands on experience as well. While we disagree, our post count is high because we are here to help and answer questions. I have given a very large number of things to think about on this thread as I do on many threads. MDP and I will, I think, agree that a high post count does not equal intelligence. A low post count does not either.
I have not yet frowned but I admit I did sigh two times.
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After doing some further research I do have a little more to add....
Food grade plastic is no longer considered food grade after something has been stored in it. The reason is that plastic tends to absorb parts of what it was storing. If you mix up salt in a bucket, the trace elements could get absorbed and later, when the hardener in the plastic decays, you could get a dump of those trace elements. I use old buckets thinking they are safe but the hardener/sealer does age and lose its integrity. Once this happens, chemicals from the plastic will leach. It seems that the best buckets are those that are not too old or young. Not too old to have lost their integrity and not so young that they have any residue form the manufacturing process. Are there enough impurities leached into water stored in a plastic bucket to cause a reef tank to have a problem? (shaking the Magic 8 Ball) Answer Unclear....
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After the last few posts regarding buckets and curing .... I contacted the bucket supplier for Aquarium Systems (Instant Ocean & Reef Crystals, and rumored producer of SeaChem salts.
I was advised that their buckets are made with food grade materials.
I was sent one new sample bucket with locking screw top.
Upon delivery (June 06, 2006) I unscrewed the top and smelled the interior of the bucket.
It had a nasty odor. I don't know if the odor was a result of new synthetic ingredients used the manufacture of the bucket or it was smelly due to no air going through the bucket prior to shipping?
When buckets are manufactured they are put one inside the other at the end of the production line. This is how they are stored and shipped. This cannot allow any circulating air to come in contact with the interior of new buckets.
The bucket I received was passed around to all our empoyees, then brougt to a leading retail aquarium shop.
I asked each person... "Would you put marine salts directly into this bucket or mix or keep freshly mixed water in this bucket"? All anwered "NO".
If marine salts are poured directly into a new bucket at the time of manufacture (without a high quality or food grade bag) ... I would have serious concerns with such a move to save the cost of a suitable mositure/vapor barrier protective bag.
If at the time of marine salt manufacture the salts are sealed in a quality moisture/vapor barrier bag, then placed inside the bucket.. so much the better. -- However, the bucket should be cured prior to opening the salt bag and placing the contents or mixing/storing salt water inside the new bucket.
Again, ALL NEW buckets or Rubbermaid containers should be cured. Curing instructions and procedure is outlined at the begining of this thread.
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Michael Del Prete
CEO Aqua Craft Products www.AquaCraft.net
If you buy drinking water (distilled) at the grocery store the water can sometimes taste like the plastic it is stored in. It's supposed to be safe but it tastes yucky. Could your fish survive in water mixed in uncured plastic? Probably. Would they thrive? IMO no.
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MDP is tired of those that get online to argue and contribute nothing.
This thread was started to offer advice those that use new synthetic containers to mix and/or store salt water.
Nothing was said about any brand of salt.. however one poster continually indicated that he paid $39.99... blah blah and more blah. Never mind changing the direction of a thread into a meaningless promotion that touted a discount price and no useful information.
BTW, the cost of a multi colored printed bucket, with top/lid, in quantity is about $5.50 each. That means some salt makers are spending $5.50 for a printed bucket to sell their item at a wholesale price in quanity to distributors for about $14.50 or less! Lets see.. The cost of the bucket is about 37% of the "cost of goods".
When we asked bucket suppliers about.. buckets.. ALL shook their head and openly stated... "Why in the world would anyone take a step back 20 years and sell a product in a bucket that is normally used for paint?"
The idea is to get the best possible items for keeping captive marine life. If someone needs a bucket, they can go to a local hardware supply and get one. Besides, arn't there enough buckets already sitting in nested stacks?
But wait.. what about the tee shirt that cost between $2.50 and $5.50? -- You know, the tee shirt that looks like it is ready to fall apart after one wash.
What about the Free Gift inside the bucket? You know, the free gift that is generally regarded as worthless.
I.e. What is the value of the actual item (marine salts) we are buying?
IMO, those that demand a bucket, tee shirt or gift vs. getting an item where the product integrity is actually part of the product , are better off watching the Cartoon Channel.
RAG is the ONLY site where a topic/thread can be started and it is answered in short order. Vs. posting on other sites where just about every thread ends up being part of a shooting match.
There is a lot of infomation on the net. Some information offered is helpful, timely and needed. RAG is The Place for such info.
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Michael Del Prete
CEO Aqua Craft Products www.AquaCraft.net
I wanted to make a point that no one else seems to have brought up. Technically, tapwater is food grade, as it is safe for human consumption. But, with chlorine, chlroamine, copper, zinc orthophosphate, and a whole host of other potential contaminants, it is the last thing I would use in a reef aquarium.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDPinUSA
New buckets indeed give off an odor. These must be cured out before salts can be mixed and water can be stored in them. If not pH will drop and toxins from resins used to make the bucket will make the newly mixed salt water unusable.
Some salts sold in buckets have the salts in bag. The bag is inside the bucket. Those salts will not be contamnated with direct contact with uncured buckets.
Salts sold in buckets with out a protective bag that keeps the salt from being in direct contact with the new bucket are highly questionable.
E..g. A food grade mositure barrier bag for this application purchased in quanitity cost about $0.55 each. If there is no bag and salts are put directly into a bucket from the salt factory... consider what other costs are being saved with the entire product?
The day and age of buckets is passing. The value/cost of a bucket is questionable.
The current wholesale cost of a printed bucket in quanitity is about $4.50 each, plus $0.85 for the top or lid. Serioius, informed and knowledgable marine keepers are understanding that the cost of the bucket is taken from the integrity of the product.
But, I also have a question. What is the difference between a food grade plastic bucket versus a food grade plastic bag? Both smell. Both could conceivably leach things. Am I missing something here?
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