Curing all new Rubbermaid and plastic buckets

[MDPinUSA]

The majority of bags used for marine salts are poly type bags. To my knowledge this poly type material does not approach food grade standards.

Other types of bags can be made from specially produced medical type material. This type of material is infinately superior for packaging/containing/shipping/selling mixed marine salt chemistry for use in producing synthetic sea water for bio assay, aquaculture, research, education, science, public aquariums to home marine aquarium keepers.

I do not wish to use this thread in a commercial manner. I have not indicated in any way that a brand of salt sold in a bucket is good or bad. I offered information about the bucket. Not the contents. When I was pushed about the salts, I offered an industry insiders view about the cost of a bucket vs. the overall wholesale selling cost of the item.

When someone asks about bags and/or the material utilized, additional information should be offered/provided so no future questions arise regarding this point.

This type of bag material is specially manufactured for our brands of marine salts. They have a different "feel" vs.that of a poly type bag.

Prior to ordering bags manufactured with this material, it is essential to provide the bag manufacturer with the chemical contents and intended use. Bags made with special material are inert to the mixture that will be placed inside.

When we get new shipments of these bags that are specifically made to keep our chemistry, there is no odor.

For those interesed in how different bag material effects marine salts, a simple test can be performed. Take a sealed package of brand A, brand B, brand C and any ACP marine salt. Submerge these sealed packages into a bucket of water.

Check these packages in 4-6 weeks. Advise which sealed bags now contain a slush mixture of wet salts. Which brands are still bone dry?

Packages with poor mositure and vapor barrier properties can allow unwanted contaminants into a sealed package.

Consider, if a marine salt manufacturer goes to great lengths to procure and use specially select grade ingredients, extends the effort to compound/mix their chemistry in the most advanced method to date, it would stand to reason that this manufacturer would want to preserve their chemistry for the benefit of their end users/customers.

In all fairness there are a few brands of marine salts produced outside the USA that use a multiple wall package material and/or use foil in their package composit. These brands should stay dry in the submerged test. However it is up to the ultimate user to evaluate how the contents perform in either independent lab. evaluation or with actual aquatic bio results vs. other brands.

What is of ultimate importance is mixing and storing marine salts in uncured buckets.

There is a great difference with salts that are packaged in the typical poly type bag, vs. exposing hydrated salts in a container that gives off an odor (food grade or not).

E.g. It is estimated that 5% or less of the contents of a bag of marine salts are in contact with the interior of the bag. Vs. significantely more of the contents when exposed to the interior of a bucket (cured or uncured), when mixed (hydrated) with clean fresh water.

Thus the very real possibility of hydrated salts in an uncured bucket can act in chemical reaction that will leach any and all toxins and impurities from the uncured bucket material.

If the bucket was cured initially, any potential problems would totally avoided.

As I posted earlier, I have a factory delivered brand new bucket from M&M Containers made in TN. These are sold as food grade. These are the same buckets used by a at least two marine salt manufacturers that produce several brands.

M&M Containers was kind enough to send me their catalog. There are photos of buckets printed with various designs for their many customers. One photo shows a bucket with the printed design of a well known marine salt.

When I received the new bucket on June 06, 2006 there was an odor. The lid has been kept on the bucket. As of today, July 26, 2006, when the lid is removed it still smells.

During the third week of June 2006, in a telephone conversation with M&M Containers I asked about the odor with the person that sent me the sample bucket.

I asked about food grade. I was told "yes". I asked about the odor. I was told "yeah".

BTW, the cost of printed buckets from M&M, with screw tops is now $6.00+ each, plus shipping to the customer. That is for 40'-45' truck load orders of buckets and tops.

I am not saying buckets are good or bad. I am saying they should be cured prior to storing dry salts and/or mixed salt water.

This thread topic is Curing RubberMaid buckets. Obvisouly RubberMaid trash cans are not food grade and give off an odor. These should be cured prior to use in mixing and storing salt water.

Would anyone mix and store salt water in a bucket that gave off an odor? I hope not.

This thread was created to offer guidance to marine aquarium keepers. It has taken a few turns.

Thanks to Steven Pro and others for asking relivant questions.

Thanks to all the RAG'ers that have shown interest and had the patience for reading all the information I have offered.

[Kirin1]

I recently bought two 3gal rubbermaid buckets for a short move of my 5.5 gal. One had an odor of new plastic, the other did not. I left them outside for 3 days before using them, and no smell.

Good Enough?

[cUddlefish]

Originally Posted by Kirin1

I recently bought two 3gal rubbermaid buckets for a short move of my 5.5 gal. One had an odor of new plastic, the other did not. I left them outside for 3 days before using them, and no smell.

Good Enough?

Maybe. I would have left them in full sun as the UV radiation tends to break things down. The heat from the sun should have driven some of the free radicals out of the plastic.

[Kirin1]

I had them on my porch, so no direct sun. I bought the top 2 buckets in the stack, so the top one had aired out in the H.Depot, the other had not.

I used them this past weekend for the move, I figure I had water in them for an hour or so. The tank has been up since sunday, so far so good!

[cUddlefish]

Sounds like it should be fine.

[Kirin1]

There are millions of people out there who have salt tanks and who use plastic buckets of all sorts, if this was true and we concluded it was the buckets alone and not ill fish to begin with killing off all these fish it would be on the news and in every possible magazine......

I think the reason we've all gotten into this discussion is because there's a differance between a reef that survives and a reef that thrives, and every little bit helps.

I would NEVER put bleach in something I'm going to use in my tank

I totally agree with this statement though. Ever get bleach on your fingers while doing laundry? It doesn't rinse off quickly or easily. I'd never trust myslef to get it all rinsed out.

[cUddlefish]

Read my posts - I suggested Carbon.
Read my posts - I said more tests are needed.

It appears that multiple posts were homogenized.

Hydrocarbons produce cancer in humans. Benzene, a highly cancerous agent, is present during the creation of plastic.

Chemists do use odor as an indicator. Smell alone is not the end all but an indicator.

Please keep the tone civil Stus. You border on insulting and I'm sure you did not intend to do so. I am very familiar (read educated) when it comes to organic chemstry.

Rather than take a chance on plastic extruding stored molecules it would be better to use plastic that is inert when possible. The chances are low for leached carcinogenic material (at least to humans) to be a problem but some people will not take even a small chance.

[MDPinUSA]

Kirin: Open air curing that yields a no odor container should be fine.

Stus: If rinsing out dust from a smelly bucket works for you, then go for it. Different strokes for different yokes.

As for... I think.. maybe... There is no guessing at my end. As for my knowledge, I have been producing marine salts for over 37 years. I share what I know, up to a point.

We do not take any short cuts or guess about producing our items. We are responsible for 30%-35% of the worlds marine salt needs.

As for details... Ingredient selection, type of packaging material, etc. is information we have learned over the years. This knowledge was learned by contracting/hiring various chemists, specalists, advisors as well as first hand exposure to our chosen profession. Proprietary information relating to the security of our business is not offered for free on the internet.

Ingredients... the various raw materials that selected, milled and compounded to comprise the finished product. What else could I possibly be referring to?

Bleach... earlier in this thread it was suggested that a small amount of bleach and/or rock salt be mixed with water to cure a RubberMaid bucket. Information was also offered that this should be rinsed out completely and the container be open-air cured. This until there is no odor. This was already discussed.

If you desire specific factual details regarding various packaging material, contact your packaging supplier. Have a variety of tests performed by an independent lab. for vapor and moisture control and possible toxicity of materials. Materials in this paragraph means, the package used to hold the finished marine salts.

Sealed poly bags are unsuitable for keeping a mixture of anhydrous and hydroscopic salts. Poly bags, by their nature suffer from micro pin holes in the material. Consult with your chemist and packaging source so you will have more information regarding this topic.

To avoid confusion, there is a difference between a poly bag and poly type bag. If you require additional information, contact your packaging supplier.

Thus special material and/or laminates are essential to keep marine salt chemistry dry in sealed packages for extended periods. Consult with your chemist and packaging representitive.

Any packaging material that leachs toxins into the package contents or allows ambient gases and/or toxins that are in intimate contact with the a sealed package that can contaminate the finished product is unsuitable. This is beyond common sense. This is a no brainer. Finished product is the package of marine salts.

As for specially selected ingredients, all major components aremade specifically for us. All minor and trace elements are AR grade.

If you wish to learn exactly what types of packaging we have made for us ... the grades of ingredients we have selected/employ and how they are produced specifically for us , ... dig deep and buy our company.

Produce your chemistry and perform and evaluate a variety of tests at your facility/lab. to learn which packaging materials and selection of ingredients will work best for your intended application.

If you require additional information regarding packaging, vapor and moisture barrier material, toxicity of various materials, marine salt chemistry, compounding of said chemistry, environmental paramaters required to maintain stability of the chemistry when in process, etc. hire competant consultants that can offer specific answers to these and no doubt more questions you will ask.

Make copies all documents resulting from any and all tests performed that may range from packaging materials and ingredient selection, chemical compounding, etc. -- Keep these documents seperate from the stack of hefty invoices resulting from your quest for information.

Enclosed is a link that will offer those with interest in this topic some useful information.

Aqua Craft®, Inc.

I took some time to provide a lot of accurate information in post #41. This was to answer possible questions that might arise from my effort. It appears that you are challanging the majority of what I offered.

I find it offensive when approached and challanged by some unknown demanding free information that cost thousands of dollars and years of research to comprehend.

From the tone of your post, I am not the person that will respond to any more of your current and future questions. I suggested you contact chemists, several consultants along with your packaging experts and representatives.

After you have paid to learn about all the ins and outs of what I offered in a few posts I made on this thread, perhaps you will have the inclination to offer all you have obtained to others online for free?

Considering you have not yet contributed to RAG, you have indeed been offered useful information not found on any other site.

[DaveK]

On using bleach....

Actually bleach is a very valuable tool around aquariums. Obviously, you never add it to a set up tank directly, but it's got a lot of advantages.

The reasons are that it will kill most all bacteria and other infectious stuff on contact, even viruses, and that it will oxidise most other unwanted organic materials (read fish wastes and algae). One it does it's job it's easily removed by either another chemical, or by flushing the item with water.

I've used bleach to clean aquarium items that could be removed from the system, such as mechanical filter cartridges, syphon tubes, and non-living decorations. It's very simple and easy to add some bleach to a bucket of water, soak the items overnight, then change the water this time using fresh water only and soak again. I'd usually soak things an additional time to be sure.

I have also used bleach on the entire system, when I had to tear a tank down dure to disease, and I didn't want any reinfections. A similar process was used. Obviously there is no livestock in the system.

[cUddlefish]

I agree Dave - Bleach is considered a great tool. The clorine in bleach, if it were to become absorbed in plastic, would probably come out very quickly because of it's ionic properties. There is chlorine in salt but it is locked away in a very tidy bond with Sodium. I would be more concerned that bleach would oxidize the hardener in the plastic and make it brittle.